RE: Elves vs. Dwarves, what do you think

#2
An interesting and loaded topic.

I had a read regarding Daniel and Matt's opinions,
and I think we can all agree that they can get sidetracked easily even though they had some valid points of discussion.

It wasn't long before morals transcended fantasy/fiction and they started doubting racism's borders.


Enough about that though, my opinion?


Dwarves


Let me elaborate:

I think that both are essential in any worthwhile fantasy that requires variety.

Dwarves are what we can assume to be closer to humans regarding lifespans,
where Elves can be assumed to be vastly longer.



In a setting for knowledge Elves are living history books, losing an elder Elf is akin to losing an ancient library's worth of information and life experiences, not that they do not document and create archives and libraries. I just find it hard to believe that something worthwhile to them would be written down for others to read, but will rather be passed on by word of mouth via inheritance, or being worthy by some deed or recognition to receive said knowledge.

Knowledge that is passed down though can be selective and limited by those who pass it on, and due to respect for their elders would not easily be tested or tried to be improved. So I feel that it is a lot easier for Elves to stagnate at a certain point of power, be it magic/political/physical.

Due to their difficulty to reproduce, their increased affinities and abilities to wield to magic they could be considered to be of a higher existence because of the difficulty they have to continue their species, yet stubbornly continue to do so.

Magic itself is versatile and can be adapted to many, if not every situation. But that creates a heavy dependence on magic, what then are they if they do not have magic? Very skilled at killing, running and surviving, but flourishing without magic? I highly doubt it.



Dwarves are limited with lifespan, and can be said to be more open minded, provided that the new idea's come from one of their own though. In a typical setting you would have technology built on previous successes, innovation and progress hard to be suppressed.

They are supposed to be warmongers, and may stagnate and or regress due to war. Or if there was ample provisions and ideas, advancement. But that is usually up to the writers discretion. They have their own magic and affinities opposed to humans and elves, but I don't see it as their primary tool for survival and advancement. No matter how crude, they would be reliant on technology.

I take the dwarves' advancement to be akin to modern day programming languages, with a first tier programming language you would perhaps need 50 lines of code to do the typical "Hello world." display. With successive generations the amount of work needed to complete the same task considerably reduces.

But then remove them of their resources, place them in a barren land where only magic resides, will they flourish? Maybe, but I doubt it.


What if we place an elven colony and a dwarven colony right next to each other, in a place where the best of both worlds regarding magic and resources are open to both, and we place a convenient vendetta that would see either one rather dead to the last descendant.

Who would survive/win given that it takes a while before they notice each other and both had a chance to flourish and advance?

I would say the dwarves, their advancement comes with each new generation in my opinion, and since they have more generations in ratio to the elves, the dwarves would most likely overpopulate and dominate the elves.


A statement if you will:
Elf: "I do it this way because it works." | "I live on tradition, doing what was done before me."
Dwarf: "I do it this way because it works better." | "I live on passion, improving what was done before me."


Remember these are but my own opinions and I am open to discussion.

What is your opinion on the matter Quill?

RE: Elves vs. Dwarves, what do you think

#3
When I think of Elves i imagine long lived creatures, beautiful by human standard. They tend to be neutral and not mingle with others. They live alongside nature and change little over time. I expect the elder elves to have been there at the beginning. They are basically a small insulated utopian society.

Dwarves are perhaps the equivalent of modern humans in a fantasy settings. They have short lives and are strong and greedy. They have prejudices but are capable of progress and transform the enviroment to suit their needs. They are not afraid to fight.

I like elves more!

RE: Elves vs. Dwarves, what do you think

#4
I'm a dwarf fan but I do have to say it's a 50/50 either way. Depends SO much on what type of setting. Are the elves reliant on their forests? In that case burn em out! Just an example but it's highly dependent. One thing I do wanna say is that I see elves getting way more face time in stories, movies and games. Like some MMOs and other games I've looked at don't even have dwarves but will have like 3 different types of elves(Damn you Skyrim. You tease me with glorious ruins of dwarfy goodness). Kinda part of why I'm doing a novel with Dwarf MC.

RE: Elves vs. Dwarves, what do you think

#5
Be warned, chances are I'm probably going to over analyse this thread and if you're into that sort of thing than read on, if not stop now.

Depends on the type of elf and dwarf. For example, elves that are long lived/immortal as long as they don't get killed by accidents, disease and so on but don't have any other physical advantages over humans besides aesthetics or being more attractive having 1/5th of the fertility rate of humans(this would be Elf variant 1 or EV1). Or, maybe elves that live for hundreds of years, 400-500, but are stronger, faster and better eye sight than humans but wounds that take much twice as long to heal as well as having 1/10 of the fertility rate of humans (Elf variant 2 or EV2).

Dwarves who live slightly longer than humans but have no other physical advantage other than having a knack or gift with prospecting, forging and inventing with a 1/2 of a fertility rate in comparison to humans (Dwarf variant 1 or DV1). Versus, dwarves who live between 120-200 years, being stronger than the average human and even stronger than the EV2 with the gift of prospecting, forging and inventing but are burdened with a noticeable sense of greed and a high temper and have a 1/4 fertility rate in comparison to humans (Dwarf variant 2 or DV2).

if we pitch EV1 against DV1 (keep in mind in both scenarios the Elves and the Dwarves have hated each other since the beginning) the dwarves would have the advantage seeing as they have the advantage of their inventions whereas all the elves have are their long life spans and the dwarves would have their weapons (this including axes, spears, crossbows and muskets) and armor whilst the elves would have their bows and arrows. However if its EV2 vs DV2 I think the elves would have the advantage due to their speed and if lets say a dwarven soldier is equipped head to toes with a full steel plate all the elf would have to do is kite them until their worn out and dead on their feet and finish him off with a knife through the visor and if they had muskets all the elf would have to do is close the distance with their superior speed and agility and once again stab them through their visors if they are equipped with full plate.

Keep in mind the reason why I have these scenarios which only go up to the (going past about 2000 years worth of development to reach the gunpowder age is because anything beyond that would mean the already complete destruction over one race over the other. However, if both races were to live thousands of years and go past the flintlock era then the dwarves would have the undeniable advantage due to their knack for inventions.

RE: Elves vs. Dwarves, what do you think

#6
In short? Depends on the setting, the people living there and other facts. Also since we're here what is your guys definitions/image of dwarves. I'm seeing dwarves being called greedy/comparable to humans and some other stuff but wondering how people see them both.

For me dwarves are in almost all fantasy the three following things. Great at crafting in any form(Metalworking to pottery and beyond) strong(They're basically humans biologically packed in a smaller package but that means more dense muscle) and honorable(When you live in a cave it's hard to ignore the guy you duped with a crappy deal or broke promises with).

Elves I put on the following labels/ traits. Magic gifted, proud and artistic(So while the dwarf kids are making their own forge I imagine elf kids would be doing plays, ballads and dances).
What about you guys?

Re: Elves vs. Dwarves, what do you think

#7
Dwarves will win most of the time. If they are both fully developed territories dwaves will always win because of their artillery, air, and long range advantage. Elves tend to stick more to tradition and the conservation of old magics most of the time and rely on their mobility to win skirmishes and would probably in a war, use guerilla tactics to try and win. The Dwarves on the other hand, will go in big armies to take out elven settlements.

 The elves could try and take out supply lines, but remember theses are dwarves and would probably use a very armored carriage or something like it to carry supplies and after an elven attack on the supply line, would prolly reinforce all or most of their lines.

So I conclude, in the early stages of development, would be where the elves excel because by then the dwarves would not have developed enough to have their super weapons and artillery and the elves have better primitive talents than the dwarves for example, archery. In the late game the elder elves who have tons of skills would be wiped out anyways by dwarven firearms like a blunderbuss or artillery since we all know that firearms are a very great equalizer or can greatly shift to another side's favor of the opposing side does not have it.


Willfultrooper Wrote: Be warned, chances are I'm probably going to over analyse this thread and if you're into that sort of thing than read on, if not stop now.

Depends on the type of elf and dwarf. For example, elves that are long lived/immortal as long as they don't get killed by accidents, disease and so on but don't have any other physical advantages over humans besides aesthetics or being more attractive having 1/5th of the fertility rate of humans(this would be Elf variant 1 or EV1). Or, maybe elves that live for hundreds of years, 400-500, but are stronger, faster and better eye sight than humans but wounds that take much twice as long to heal as well as having 1/10 of the fertility rate of humans (Elf variant 2 or EV2).

Dwarves who live slightly longer than humans but have no other physical advantage other than having a knack or gift with prospecting, forging and inventing with a 1/2 of a fertility rate in comparison to humans (Dwarf variant 1 or DV1). Versus, dwarves who live between 120-200 years, being stronger than the average human and even stronger than the EV2 with the gift of prospecting, forging and inventing but are burdened with a noticeable sense of greed and a high temper and have a 1/4 fertility rate in comparison to humans (Dwarf variant 2 or DV2).

if we pitch EV1 against DV1 (keep in mind in both scenarios the Elves and the Dwarves have hated each other since the beginning) the dwarves would have the advantage seeing as they have the advantage of their inventions whereas all the elves have are their long life spans and the dwarves would have their weapons (this including axes, spears, crossbows and muskets) and armor whilst the elves would have their bows and arrows. However if its EV2 vs DV2 I think the elves would have the advantage due to their speed and if lets say a dwarven soldier is equipped head to toes with a full steel plate all the elf would have to do is kite them until their worn out and dead on their feet and finish him off with a knife through the visor and if they had muskets all the elf would have to do is close the distance with their superior speed and agility and once again stab them through their visors if they are equipped with full plate.

Keep in mind the reason why I have these scenarios which only go up to the (going past about 2000 years worth of development to reach the gunpowder age is because anything beyond that would mean the already complete destruction over one race over the other. However, if both races were to live thousands of years and go past the flintlock era then the dwarves would have the undeniable advantage due to their knack for inventions.


And to you, I do think you get something. Dwarves don't "run" if they have to. They know they have short legs in comparaison to other races. So they wont do pointless things like trying to catch up to long legged sticks. They will instead, keep formation and try and escape to a place they will be more able to fight. If the elves disengage? Doesn't matter, they can't catch up to a race known for their agility and dexterity. They are not videogame ai that let you kite them. They are sentient beings with common sense.

Saying the Dwarves will chase after elves is like saying that turtles will chase after a cheetah. Also, stabbing through helmet visors are tougher than you think. Unlike what they show in movies, people actually move their head to avoid being stabbed through the visor.

Re: Elves vs. Dwarves, what do you think

#9
Dwarves of course, that's why I'm writing a story about them. There's something rather alien about living totally underground that interests me. That and their penchant for creating beautiful and dangerous artefacts. In the original Norse mythology they were the ones who made Thor's hammer, Odin's spear, etc, and they can be relied upon to forge something dangerous in any fantasy setting, be it magic swords, guns or gyrocopters.

I like elves too, but I feel they've been done a lot, and often turn into more 'perfect' versions of humans, whereas dwarves have interesting flaws aplenty. 

Re: Elves vs. Dwarves, what do you think

#12
Ah, a nice one. Okay so.

Elves.

Someone: Well that was easy.

Yes, well. Basically Elves are taller, live more, are more efficient in...well...everything! And they have money power and...women? Is that...? Yeah, you know what I mean.

On the contrary, dwarves are smaller in size, some weight more for their actual small size (that's no bueno), they don't live that long and...really...they like mountains. If there's one place you wouldn't want to build your life on, it's mountains.

But hey. At least they have a good view, am I right?