I watch a lot of the Film Courage videos on YouTube, and there was one I watched recently where the guy says if you have amazing characters, your audience will remember the characters more than the actual plot. Even if the ending is weak, most people will still, overall, enjoy it if they like the characters. (As long as the ending isn't absolutely appalling.)

I was disappointed with the last Mistborn book, The Lost Metal, but overall I still enjoyed the characters and setting...so I didn't hate it and it didn't ruin the entire series for me. I think it depends just how bad the ending is. If it comes completely out of left field and makes zero sense, then yeah, I'm probably going to hate it and won't want to bother with that author anymore. If it's just kind...meh, like how I felt about The Lost Metal, then...that's more acceptable and less damaging.

Whenever I begin reading a new indie/self-published book I find myself thinking, "Okay, this is starting off okay, and the premise is interesting, but I'll be able to tell if they're actually a good writer when I get to the ending, and see how they wrap this up." I feel like a lot of new writers are still figuring out how to stick their landings, myself included. It's the thing I agonize over most in my own writing. My pantster husband (who is also a writer) tells me to just go ahead and write it and see what happens and I argue I can't fully commit to writing it if I don't already know how it ends. EXACTLY how it ends. But I'm currently trying to be easier on myself.

AveryFoxwalk Wrote: "My pantster husband (who is also a writer) tells me to just go ahead and write it and see what happens and I argue I can't fully commit to writing it if I don't already know how it ends. EXACTLY how it ends. But I'm currently trying to be easier on myself."

I typically know the *ending* of a book before I start it. I just... kinda work backward from there until I find a point where I can bring a reader in without too much 'WTF is going on?' going on.

Kenny Wrote:

AveryFoxwalk Wrote: "My pantster husband (who is also a writer) tells me to just go ahead and write it and see what happens and I argue I can't fully commit to writing it if I don't already know how it ends. EXACTLY how it ends. But I'm currently trying to be easier on myself."

I typically know the *ending* of a book before I start it. I just... kinda work backward from there until I find a point where I can bring a reader in without too much 'WTF is going on?' going on.

That makes so much more sense to me then just going in blind.

Hmmm. I like this question. I have to parse it, though, because there's different kinds of bad. My default answer is 'yes', though. Here's a little more nuance:

Blinked Ending
No and Yes. This one is sometimes okay with me. I downgrade the book, but I often still recommend it, depending on how much I enjoyed the ride and/or the characters. After six books, I rated the First and Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant as the greatest Fantasy epic of all time. Then he did "The Last Chronicles...", which turned out to be only about 2-1/2 novels of Dondaldson's masterful writing in 4 books and the mother of all blinked endings. And now the overall epic is no longer my favorite. But I still can recommend SRD. (Still stings a bit, though).

Just Not Enough In The Tank
HeRE bE pLOt hOlEs! The plot doesn't resolve in a way that makes sense; the characters act against their own type; magic saviors appear; and so forth. The author just bit off more than they could chew. Yes, that ruins the book for me. Like watching an olympic swimming diver hit the concrete instead of the water.

Pointless Ending
Sorry, but nihilism ('and they all died', or 'none of it really mattered') doesn't do it for me. It just reads to me as avoiding having to tell a story (Steve Martin at 1:40).

Cliffhanger Ending
Ugh. This is truly my pet peeve. I don't care if it's "Book One of Twenty" of the greatest epic ever...each entry should have resolved that main arc of that particular book, or else I feel cheated (looking at you GRRM). No exceptions.

Now, I know people point to LOTR as the counter-example—remembering that it was the publishing company that split it up into three books, not Tolkein. But, LOTR is never useful to me as an example of anything. It's Lord of the Rings, for crying out loud. It set the bar. So, I end up feeling like Paul McCartney when he was responding to how some people think the Beatles White Album is too long. Sir Paul said, "It's the bloody Beatles' White Album. Shut up."

The Wrote: Blinked Ending

Forgive my ignorance, but what's a Blinked Ending?

It just feels like you have wasted your entire time.

If the bad end is written with skill it can be refreshing. 

Absolutely, and the same is true for most. As has already been pointed out, look at Game of Thrones. The story went from cultural phenomenon to being loathed or ditched practically overnight. The more someone was into the show when it aired, the less likely they are to want to rewatch it now.

For a more personal example? One of my most loathed books of all time is because of a terrible ending. It was just a mediocre sci-fi alien invasion story, but the resolution tossed in the last 1% of the book to save humanity? Deus ex machina vampires. Vampires that then went up into the hard vacuum of space and killed the aliens. With the story, up until that point, quite clearly being a science fiction book with 0 vampires.

Fuck you, David Weber, for tricking me into reading that garbage. You hack.

I think knowing a story has a bad ending immediately demotivates someone from reading it. The pay-off for all the time invested reading needs to go somewhere afterall.

mabon Wrote: I think knowing a story has a bad ending immediately demotivates someone from reading it. The pay-off for all the time invested reading needs to go somewhere afterall.

Your comment prompted a thought; there is a major difference between a bad ending and a downer ending.

The former you get to it and go 'uh... whut? is that it?', whereas the latter might have you in tears, but there's some degree of closure, of completion to the story.

Kenny Wrote: Your comment prompted a thought; there is a major difference between a bad ending and a downer ending.

The former you get to it and go 'uh... whut? is that it?', whereas the latter might have you in tears, but there's some degree of closure, of completion to the story.

I think that depends on personal preference. Some people might not enjoy a downer ending, it might even be the point of the story. A lot of horror/thriller works be like that. Lovecraftian works be like that. 

You have to be careful though. Sometimes you might want to go for a downer ending just to 'surprise' the readers, but then what was this entire journey for? What is the reward for reading this long? For everyone to fail and nothing to have a point?

Imo I feel if you're taking your readers on this long on a journey, you gotta deliver what your story premise was promising. Sometimes people do try to do just that, but the execution doesn't work for everyone.

mabon Wrote:

Kenny Wrote: Your comment prompted a thought; there is a major difference between a bad ending and a downer ending.

The former you get to it and go 'uh... whut? is that it?', whereas the latter might have you in tears, but there's some degree of closure, of completion to the story.

I think that depends on personal preference. Some people might not enjoy a downer ending, it might even be the point of the story. A lot of horror/thriller works be like that. Lovecraftian works be like that. 

You have to be careful though. Sometimes you might want to go for a downer ending just to 'surprise' the readers, but then what was this entire journey for? What is the reward for reading this long? For everyone to fail and nothing to have a point?

Imo I feel if you're taking your readers on this long on a journey, you gotta deliver what your story premise was promising. Sometimes people do try to do just that, but the execution doesn't work for everyone.

True, although a downer ending doesn't have to be a protagonist failure ending. The best example I can think of in recent history is Avengers: Endgame. For another example which doesn't even give closure, and is definitely a downer, but the ending soliloquy is so damn good and on point that it works anyway is the ending of Season thirteen of Red vs. Blue; that's really saying something, since that ending really felt like it was intended to be a series ending. The fact that Red vs. Blue is fundamentally a comedy series, and (at least circa season 13) they ended it on a downer ending without closure And Made It Work was really a mark of greatness.

I do get you, though, that a book or series billed as light and funny that winds up not light and funny is going to put a lot of readers / viewers off. There should at least be some foreshadowing that some folks aren't going to walk away from this. Too many people are so enamored of 'the twist ending' that they'll do it even if it screws up the story as a whole (looking at YOU, Game of Thrones).

Quote:Too many people are so enamored of 'the twist ending' that they'll do it even if it screws up the story as a whole (looking at YOU, Game of Thrones).

Quote:Absolutely, and the same is true for most. As has already been pointed out, look at Game of Thrones. The story went from cultural phenomenon to being loathed or ditched practically overnight. The more someone was into the show when it aired, the less likely they are to want to rewatch it now.

GoT is quite a bad example for this.

The show followed the books till Season 6 or so, the crime against humanity, that were the last 2 or 2,5 seasons grew on the offal of some untalented twats, who though, they were great. But didn't understand any of the characters (see Tyrion becoming an idiot) or space-time (see teleporting characters and armies), or physics (see exploding dragon-breath), or military tactics (see any of the battles at Winterfell. Especially the last one).
I'm quite interested, in how the books will end, though.

Mr Wrote: GoT is quite a bad example for this.

Nope, pretty good one.


The question posed isn't, "Does one bad version of the story ruin every version of it for you?" If so then yes, GoT would indeed be a terrible example. The show would be used as an example for why the books are ruined, and that would not be true for a ton of people.

But that's not what my point was. If GoT the show is considered its own thing and not exactly the same thing as the books, as it should be, the bad ending of the show absolutely ruined the entire show for the vast majority. Do you remember the show fondly or want to watch it again? I sure as hell don't. The more you loved the show during its peak, the more likely you are to hate it or avoid it now.

If you love Pinocchio the book, the 13th spinoff movie doesn't suddenly ruin the book for you. You rightfully consider the movie its own thing and hate it for sucking. The same is true for GoT. That doesn't stop GoT the show from being the posterchild for a terrible ending ruining everything that came beforehand. I can't think of a single example that comes even close to illustrating this point so well.

That's very relevant to the question being posed here, unless we're arbitrarily limiting "story" to only include written works. Given I'm using it as an example of culture and people's reaction to a good story going bad, it still gives a good idea for how people generally feel about bad endings. Even when the story has been ridiculously well received up until that point.

Namely that yeah, a sufficiently awful ending typically ruins the whole thing for most people. Myself included.

Quote:But that's not what my point was. If GoT the show is considered its own thing and not exactly the same thing as the books, as it should be, the bad ending of the show absolutely ruined the entire show for the vast majority. Do you remember the show fondly or want to watch it again? I sure as hell don't. The more you loved the show during its peak, the more likely you are to hate it or avoid it now.

The first five seasons I would watch without a second thought. Maybe even the sixth. Seventh and Eighth? No f***ing way. However, I would read the books, just to see, how it ended there. 

So, yeah, I do make a distinction between an "Original" and "Fanfiction" - GoT's TV-version was just that: a very bad fanfiction. The ending there ruined multiple years of fun, for the show, but it didn't ruin the original stroy. If GRRM fucks up the ending in the books too (assuming, the story will be written sometime), THAT would ruin both the original and the fanfic.

Ziggy Wrote:

Mr Wrote: GoT is quite a bad example for this.

Nope, pretty good one.


The question posed isn't, "Does one bad version of the story ruin every version of it for you?" If so then yes, GoT would indeed be a terrible example. The show would be used as an example for why the books are ruined, and that would not be true for a ton of people.

If GoT the show is considered its own thing and not exactly the same thing as the books, as it should be...

That would by why I said "Game of Thrones" and not "Song of Ice and Fire"

I don't particularly like it when the story feels upbeat/heroic but ends in tragedy. 

Examples:

• Assassin's Apprentice series by Robin Hobb 
• See These Bones trilogy by Chris Tullbane 
• Demon Cycle series by Peter V Brett
• Lightbringer series by Brent Weeks
• Art of the Adept series by Michael G Manning 

Some of those are easier to take than others. I will never read Brent Weeks again, whereas I am willing to try more Michael G Manning. 

It's a matter of setting expectations for the reader, and meeting them in a satisfying-yet-unpredictable way.

I am SO GLAD my alpha reader talked me out of making a tragic ending for my own series. He was right. When you do epic, I think happy endings are the best. 

AbbyBabble Wrote: Some of those are easier to take than others. I will never read Brent Weeks again

There's a blast from the past for me. 

I liked their Night Angel trilogy, but the Lightbringer series went in a weird direction. I didn't even read the last book in the series because the prior book felt so mediocre and had an odd tone. Given the reaction to the finale was generally not good, I'm inclined to believe I didn't miss much.

AbbyBabble Wrote:

• Demon Cycle series by Peter V Brett

This is the one that sticks out, though, for series that went downhill.

First book made a strong showing. Then things got weird with the sequels. There was an entire book in the series dedicated to a flashback of the origin of one of the antagonists that we already had the broad strokes of. Lots of pointlessly gratuitous sex and violence, a weird obsession with the religion, repetitive exposition of stuff we already knew, and some very strange story choices.

Really feels like they didn't know where to take things after the first book and decided to try to milk it for five books after the positive reception of the first.

The enheritence cycle for example the ending well derailed the whole thing for me. I hoped a romantic ending, but that didn't happen.

For short stories and one-offs, I like bad endings way more. 

For full-length series, I usually hope for a melancholic ending, like victory at a harsh cost.