I would seriously want to avoid YouTube's system at all possible costs. Getting rid of negative feedback removes a critical piece of feedback. 

It took me a couple years of continued writing and an open mind to recognize that my early 0.5 star ratings were, to an extent, deserved. 

Does it hurt to receive a 0.5 and have no idea why? Yeah. 

Is it annoying to need premium to find which chapters angered someone enough to get a 0.5? Yeah. 

Should 0.5 stars be related to a forum post and NOT your story? Absolutely not. The fix for that shouldn't be to break the rating system, but the forum system. 

Programmatically speaking, users should be able to define a forum name for their account. When they write a post, they can elect to use their linkable main account name or their non-linkable forum pen name. 

Then you can discuss more controversial topics at peace with the idea you won't be slapped for it(whether deserved or not). That way, only mods will be able to find your main account with their mod powers if you break forum rules, and users can continue on their lives.

Negative feedback is still feedback. And, on the upside, the potential for negative feedback really makes me watch myself so I don't go around being an absolute a**-hat. 

Father Wrote:

Alexander Wrote: For example, I am very much of the belief that ratings should be tied to accounts identifiably. That is, no more anonymous ratings. Everything should be reviews. That way, if people wish to be insincere with the system, they're at least visibly insincere to their peers.

We could go even further. We can simply remove 0.5 star reviews. That's no good though, because then it rains 1.0 star reviews. Repeat until there's only 4.5 and 5.0 stars left, so let's skip a few steps and remove star ratings completely.

The forums already have a reputation system. Why not go with that? Based on the level of your profile you can give as much reputation as you think a fiction deserves. Since users who interact with the system (writing comments, reviews, etc.) have higher levels, their vote is worth more, but even a new user can make a positive impact by just giving one reputation to their favorite story.

No more 0.5 star reviews. No more review bombing. 

That's the solution isn't it? We have a system that gives people the option to voice their disdain and we can't have that, so we change the system to take that option away. No one should be able to say that he dislikes something, only how much he likes something.

I'm looking at how youtube implemented this and I see no issues.

Not bad. So basically have thumbs up but no thumbs down so no one gets offended, and we judge fiction by how much thumbs up a fiction got?

however, the problem is the review. review without ratings, then? just a bunch of writings that said what's on the fiction from reader's perspective? actually not a bad idea.

Thistleman Wrote: I would seriously want to avoid YouTube's system at all possible costs. Getting rid of negative feedback removes a critical piece of feedback. 

It took me a couple years of continued writing and an open mind to recognize that my early 0.5 star ratings were, to an extent, deserved. 

Does it hurt to receive a 0.5 and have no idea why? Yeah. 

Is it annoying to need premium to find which chapters angered someone enough to get a 0.5? Yeah. 

Should 0.5 stars be related to a forum post and NOT your story? Absolutely not. The fix for that shouldn't be to break the rating system, but the forum system. 

Programmatically speaking, users should be able to define a forum name for their account. When they write a post, they can elect to use their linkable main account name or their non-linkable forum pen name. 

Then you can discuss more controversial topics at peace with the idea you won't be slapped for it(whether deserved or not). That way, only mods will be able to find your main account with their mod powers if you break forum rules, and users can continue on their lives.

Negative feedback is still feedback. And, on the upside, the potential for negative feedback really makes me watch myself so I don't go around being an absolute a**-hat. 

We can still have negative feedback in the form of comments inside chapters so everyone wins, right?

Laulau20 Wrote: We can still have negative feedback in the form of comments inside chapters so everyone wins, right?

That's the crux of the problem. Most people don't like to comment. They can not like a story and either can't elaborate on why, or just don't want to argue about it. 

Instead of getting any anonymous ratings feedback, you will be much more likely to wallow in a silent ghost town. 

Getting comments is work. Getting constructive criticism is work. Getting those on a story that has drawbacks and people are afraid about having to argue and fight over those drawbacks? That is A LOT of work. 

A simple solution is to make advanced reviews the norm. Current ratings would have to be grandfathered in of course but the advanced review has a lot of great benefits to it.

• There is a character requirement for advanced reviews.
• The reviews are tracked on that users profile.
• They can be upvoted and downvoted with much more sincerity.
• It prevents rating bombs.

However, that being said I think that something that will make you stronger as a writer will be enduring these review bombs. If you are not cut out to receive bad press or criticism then you shouldn't be posting your work online. It is all a part of the process. If you believe your work is good then what random people say on the internet shouldn't sway you from putting passion into your work.

Hope that helps!

After experiencing how toxic Royal Road can be, as a mere reader, I have a following suggestion.

In my opinion:

You should rate all and every story you encounter 5-star. Period. Regardless of actual or perceived quality.

If you have any objection to the story, or opinion, or feedback, you should only express it in writing, under the review which would have the 5-star rating attached to it.

This way you can exercise your right to express your opinion without damaging the story. Your words may hurt the writer's ego, but will not destroy the story existence. Your rating stays even if writer fixed the issue you criticized the story for, making improvement pointless.

Royal Road is not traditional publishing, and rating doesn't work the same way

Thistleman Wrote:

Laulau20 Wrote: We can still have negative feedback in the form of comments inside chapters so everyone wins, right?

That's the crux of the problem. Most people don't like to comment. They can not like a story and either can't elaborate on why, or just don't want to argue about it. 

Instead of getting any anonymous ratings feedback, you will be much more likely to wallow in a silent ghost town. 

Getting comments is work. Getting constructive criticism is work. Getting those on a story that has drawbacks and people are afraid about having to argue and fight over those drawbacks? That is A LOT of work.

I had more comments than rating for all of my fiction. Most of them are the usual TYFC.  

But there are several who said their piece of mind in the form of grammar editing and outright didn't like the plot. most of them were even kind enough that they ask whether I prefer the critics to be heard through PM alone, so it stays private or in the comments. they were aware that giving less than a 5-star rating might harm the author's motivation. so they preferred to just speak out in the comment where the impact is more negligible. authors can defend themselves there, and if it goes out of control, the author can even outright delete comments in their fiction.

The problem is that once all the fiction loses the rating system, the mods would have to rethink every list on the homepage from best completed to rising stars.

ratings are important to garner viewership. to garner viewership, you need to be on the homepage list. homepage list now view ratings as an absolute stats to look for.

It could be just me, but I haven't had anything like this occur.  Does that mean my opinions are, by default, milquetoast?  No clue.  Although I do recall having a couple of posts that boil down to fuck readers write what you want so I can't imagine that being a super popular take.  Anyway, this isn't the first kind of thread I've seen with such a negative slant on the community and the advice to have separate forum IDs from author IDs so my question, I guess, is:  Is there really such toxic behavior in the forum?  Is this something that happens when you start getting more followers or something? 

I'm pretty small time, pretty casual about my readership, so it'd be nice to know if there's a wood chipper out there I need to be aware of before I stick my face into it.

Trathnonen Wrote: It could be just me, but I haven't had anything like this occur.  Does that mean my opinions are, by default, milquetoast?  No clue.  Although I do recall having a couple of posts that boil down to fuck readers write what you want so I can't imagine that being a super popular take.  Anyway, this isn't the first kind of thread I've seen with such a negative slant on the community and the advice to have separate forum IDs from author IDs so my question, I guess, is:  Is there really such toxic behavior in the forum?  Is this something that happens when you start getting more followers or something? 

I'm pretty small time, pretty casual about my readership, so it'd be nice to know if there's a wood chipper out there I need to be aware of before I stick my face into it.

Readers don't usually pop into general. It's mostly authors here, with the occasional reader. 

It does take a carefully crafted opinion to unleash the rage-train, though. People loath feeling like they have been insulted, or trolled, or that someone is gaming the system.

Many readers hate other readers, and the kind of readers authors hate will almost certainly never bother with the general forum full of... That's right! Us authors! 

Is there a wood chipper? Yup. There's also a meat grinder, and mortar and pestle. I've been here a long time and have seen it happen many times. But as long as you avoid those top three things I listed, you will likely avoid it. Because those set it off every. Single. Time. 

Esbe Wrote: After experiencing how toxic Royal Road can be, as a mere reader, I have a following suggestion.

"Mere reader" my ass. How else are you supposed to form an opinion about a work? By printing it out and then smoking it? 

Being a writer does not make one superior to anyone in any regard. It just means someone likes to write. As a reader your opinion is just as valuable. 

Esbe Wrote: You should rate all and every story you encounter 5-star. Period. Regardless of actual or perceived quality.

If you have any objection to the story, or opinion, or feedback, you should only express it in writing, under the review which would have the 5-star rating attached to it.

This way you can exercise your right to express your opinion without damaging the story. Your words may hurt the writer's ego, but will not destroy the story existence. Your rating stays even if writer fixed the issue you criticized the story for, making improvement pointless.

Royal Road is not traditional publishing, and rating doesn't work the same way

That being said your take on the rating system is so out of this world I'd like to make a vacation at your base on cloud seven. 

We got into this whole mess because everyone gives only the most positive reviews imaginable, leaving even a single 0.5 star review with disproportionate amount of sway. 

Also, how is anyone supposed to find good stories if ratings are meaningless either way? If a story sits at 4 stars I'm usually pretty quick to find out where the negative feedbacks are coming from. 

This site is for authors and readers both. Ratings are mostly for readers, even if it hurts an author. 

I don't think it's possible to have a perfect rating system.

I would like it if ratings were public like reviews. Something like the following after all reviews on a page:
totallynotausernameexample: 5 stars
 
I'd also like if users had their average rating given on their page to help identify trolls or people who use the rating system as it should be used.

But I also realise that it would make me less likely to give a rating.
I received two 3.5 star ratings early into the November Writathon for my fiction. They were likely honest as my writing has improved a lot since then and I've done several extensive editing passes.
Would I have received those ratings if the readers knew it was public?

I know I would have contacted them politely if it was public. Maybe they would have even been willing to help or offer suggestions. But I can understand how some messages might not be polite or fair.


---------------

My suggestion? Make 0.5 star and 5 star ratings require 100 characters of justification.
But its probably too late for that now.

Father Wrote: That being said your take on the rating system is so out of this world I'd like to make a vacation at your base on cloud seven.

We got into this whole mess because everyone gives only the most positive reviews imaginable, leaving even a single 0.5 star review with disproportionate amount of sway.

Also, how is anyone supposed to find good stories if ratings are meaningless either way? If a story sits at 4 stars I'm usually pretty quick to find out where the negative feedbacks are coming from.

This site is for authors and readers both. Ratings are mostly for readers, even if it hurts an author.

Rating as it is isn't helpful in finding stories you want.

It is not objective.

Bad rating doesn't mean story is bad.

I give story one star.

Second guy gives it five.

It averages on three.

You search for 5 star star story since you want to read a good story.

You might agree with the second guy, but you will never find the story. it is three.

Author deletes it since no one read it. Why shout into the void.

Story you could have liked is gone.

Alexander Wrote:

Between anything less than 5-star reviews being seen as taboo and people's works receiving 0.5-star ratings purely out of spite, I'm very much of the opinion that the rating system here simply isn't that good.

And by that, I mean terrible. If the options are "5 stars" or "perish", then you don't have a review system—you have a weapon.

More to the point, people give 0.5-star ratings maliciously precisely because the system doesn't work as it should, precisely because they have the power to make or break a fledgling story.

That's almost comical. It should not be that way.

Also:

just_one_idea Wrote: milquetoast

Nice.

Too the limited extent that this is true, it is only true because of inflationary reviews, 'review swaps' 5 star spamming etc.

If your personal review average exceeds 3 stars, you are responsible for the suffering you describe.

tempast404 Wrote: Too the limited extent that this is true, it is only true because of inflationary reviews, 'review swaps' 5 star spamming etc.

tempast404 Wrote: If your personal review average exceeds 3 stars, you are responsible for the suffering you describe.

Alexander Wrote: I think, ultimately, the whole issue might be rooted in the necessity of the 5-star review for meaningful traction gain and visibility. Perhaps we're discussing the symptoms instead of the cause.

Maybe this is a holdover idea from when the site's algorithms operated differently, but I know that I regularly see stories on the rising stars list with (slightly) sub 4 star ratings these days.

As for the rating system being flawed, I think it mostly comes down to the fact that for every 5 users, there are at least 8 opinions on the PURPOSE of the rating system. leading everyone to point fingers at everyone else and say they are *misusing* it more than some actual mechanical problem.

I'm going to play devils advocate here. A lot of the "sudden" 0.5 stars are just people who are fed up with waiting for something to happen because the author went off on some tangent and got lost there. For example I'm currently reading a story about a dungeon core with the twist that it's in a special location that lets it break the mold from other dungeon core stories and it started out great, but the story had neither a core or it's special location for the last two months. Which is kind of a bummer if the story name is literally <location> <core>. Or another one about a necromancer that was hasn't had any minions for literally the last third of it's runtime. At some point the downvotes are going to come in.

I don't understand not liking an author's direction and then rating bombing them.  Not in a serial publication format.  How do you know that the author didn't have some grand payoff for the downturn, some moment of awesome growth following their character being a shit heel?  It's the weakness of the entire premise of posting work that is incomplete.  Not knowing the end, a work gets bombed for trying something and then gets dropped because the author can't invest time in a project that is failing.  Most books never get there to the payout because some asshat decides to get bored, flame the author, and consign their months/years of work to the sightless void.  It makes no sense.  You can just...do nothing.  You can just wait.  You can unfollow.  Hell, you can just leave a comment that asks if/when this arc is going to be resolved and come back to read it in one chunk once it has.  There are any number of ways to accommodate yourself as a reader that don't involve ruining what other people might enjoy.  It's the public forum equivalent of graffiti. 

And here's the part that's particularly egregious about it.  There isn't a 3* rating used.  They don't give out a 2.5*.  No, straight to the 0.5* do maximum damage.  In my experience, I have never actually read a 0.5* work on this site.  I've read some not good stuff, I've read a chapter and been like "Nope.  No sir, not even close to good", but I've never seen something that was just straight-up that bad.  I've seen a fuck load of 2* mind you.  But not 0.5*.  To me, an unjustified minimum score should not exist, it's far too impactful, far too easy to abuse, and requires exactly no good faith on the part of the one leaving it.

That's why reviews make more sense.  Even a bad review tells you something about the reader experience.  Even something you think is unfair has something teachable in it for you the author.  And, for the reader, it forces them to articulate what is so objectionable, which, more often than not, forces them to admit that something isn't as bad as their first twitch makes it out to be.  All around, reviews are just simply better than ratings, for all parties. 

Thereadman Wrote: I'm going to play devils advocate here. A lot of the "sudden" 0.5 stars are just people who are fed up with waiting for something to happen because the author went off on some tangent and got lost there. For example I'm currently reading a story about a dungeon core with the twist that it's in a special location that lets it break the mold from other dungeon core stories and it started out great, but the story had neither a core or it's special location for the last two months. Which is kind of a bummer if the story name is literally <location> <core>. Or another one about a necromancer that was hasn't had any minions for literally the last third of it's runtime. At some point the downvotes are going to come in.

I'd like to think the majority of users on the site aren't toxic. Sure there are some passionate forum posters but they're voicing their opinions in text, which is good, regardless of their opinion. At most a bad 0.5 might come from an occasional inflamed reaction from an author, but probably more from a few random readers that might disagree with a post. It might not be a lot, but two or three can be enough to hurt if the ratings are the major determining factor of whether an author's story gets eyes on it.

The only one gaining anything with an anon 0.5 is the anon that dropped the grenade and walked away, without a word and knowing that they damaged the ratings with nothing more than a click. Reasonable reviews require effort, even unfavorable ones. If someone leaves a crap review just to drop a 0.5 rating then the quality of that review should be evident. "I rated it low because of... uh, bad grammar! Yeah, that's it!" *posts* Anyone that sees that review and that knows the grammar (or whatever reason is being given for the low rating) is fine or at least debatable will know that review was probably in bad faith or in need of moderation. People might say that could reduce the effectiveness of the 0.5, but I'd say it could raise its effectiveness, because if it's a valid complaint about the quality of the story then you'll KNOW it, the author will know it and maybe have a chance to fix it (assuming it's a justified issue and not a subjective argument). The person writing something that damning has to mean it, has offer some constructive critique, and maybe actually help the author in the end. Honestly, even a full 5 star should justify itself for the same reason, it's still being transparent about it and its not only helping the author know what they're doing right, but also anyone that reads the review by giving more context for the rating.

That took a while to write, because I feel like it's important enough issue to comment on and I wanted my commentary to be well thought out, but that's all I have left to say on it whether it helps to change anything or not.

Every time I give a 4 and below for a review, my story suffers negative ratings. There’s also times I somehow get the attention of a troll or psychopath who wants to make my day bad. My overall score used to be a 4.87, until I got review bombed. The mods removed the guy with like seven accounts dropping 0.5s, but I’ve gotten vengeful bad ratings from other people who were smart enough to not use dummy accounts.

To give you an idea of how bad this is. I have 2 pages of glowing reviews. My character score is 4.96 but my overall score is trashed from a few bad actors. My visibility is hurt from this. I fully support removing anon ratings in favor of only having advanced reviews.

Yes. Take away anonymity, expose the anons. Be who u can be on Main! 

Slow Wrote: Every time I give a 4 and below for a review, my story suffers negative ratings. There’s also times I somehow get the attention of a troll or psychopath who wants to make my day bad. My overall score used to be a 4.87, until I got review bombed. The mods removed the guy with like seven accounts dropping 0.5s, but I’ve gotten vengeful bad ratings from other people who were smart enough to not use dummy accounts.

To give you an idea of how bad this is. I have 2 pages of glowing reviews. My character score is 4.96 but my overall score is trashed from a few bad actors. My visibility is hurt from this. I fully support removing anon ratings in favor of only having advanced reviews.

Holy moly, some guy had seven accounts dropping 0.5s? What in the actual--???

How the heck do these people even have the time????