Anyone have a list of tropes/themes that tend to work on RR? Or stuff to avoid?
People say write to market if you want success, so if you were to create a checklist of stuff that is needed, what would be included?

For example, I know stuff like stupid/weak protagonists will tank a story. Any other must-haves or must-nots to keep in mind?

Stupid protagonist =/ weak protagonist. Homer Simpson for example. Or your average shonen anime hero. They're solid, enjoyable characters. 

These rules aren't iron-clad, so it's hard to make something like a comprehensive list. Your best bet is going to be to read a lot and get a feeling for it. 

Off the top of my head:

This site is heavily biased towards sci-fi and fantasy, so you'll need to be in one of those genres. 

Numbers going up is the latest craze so litrpg's (or hard progression fantasy) tend to dominate the front page (some of us still remember when the craze was superheroes). 

Slow burn stories don't do as well as stories that are crazy from the jump (Defiance of the fall, Primal hunter, Dungeon crawler carl, etc) probably because most readers will read the first few chapters and if they don't get that hit of dopamine, they move on to someone who will give it to them.

Try avoid contemporary political issues; I never read it but I saw the landing page of this one fic, Monroe, and so many of its reviews were just bashing the author's political views because I guess he inserted them somewhere in the story. 

It's generally better to have your MC isekaied somewhere or alter the earth so that it's almost unrecognisable (system apocalyse, alien invasion, ancient historical setting, whatever). I've noticed that urban fantasies set in modern earth don't do as well.

Protagonist constantly struggling for his life, on the brink of death every 10 chapters. He perserveres and wins (97% of the time. If he loses, he comes back stronger then crushes the foes that bested him.)

Progression. Not only does the MC get stronger, but he gets stronger faster than anybody else is getting stronger. The gap keeps growing. LitRPG system and cultivation systems work great for this, but you can use any "magic" system that lets people rapidly grow stronger. Also, visible progression. Iron tier to Diamond tier. F-grade to SSS-Z-hyper rank. Level -3 to level 783. Apprentice to Archmage, peasant to King.

Tension. Stakes. "If I fail at this, it's all over."

Intelligent MC, making the good (best) decisions pretty much all the time. If they do something stupid, the readers will get mad. Cautious, pragmatic, optimal. Robotic, even. They deserve the extra power, because they spent so much time thinking and planning how to achieve it.

Treasure. Shinies. They find rare stuff the readers can get excited over. Propels them ahead in power by a noticeable amount, but nothing truly insane. The MC gets better loot than everybody else, obviously. And more secrets.

Being overpowered, and far above their peers. They don't have to be the strongest in the world of course, but easily in the top 1% (or 0.01%). Stronger characters have to exist, more or less, but the MC is going to take them out sooner or later. One by one. You can't run, and you can't hide from the MC. 

Related to the last two: a cheat. A power, either inborn or granted, that nobody else has access to. It snowballs over time, even if it might not seem too insane from the get-go. But they're the MC for a reason: they're the person that will irrevocably change the world, shape it to their liking. They don't play by the same rules as everybody else. They're the [System]'s favourite child, Chosen by the Gods, or have a crazy high Luck stat, etc. etc. Can loop back in time unlike anybody else, have the memories of a 1000 years old divine cultivator, they own the most powerful weapon in the universe, they have an incredibly rare ancient bloodline, you know the drill.

Hot women (well, these fictions don't really have any non-hot women to be honest) all express romantic interest towards the MC. He mostly brushes them off, of course. He's such a nice guy. He could sleep with troves of them if he wanted to, but he's the bigger person and chooses not to. (Or, well, you could do a loving relationship, but those stories tend to end up at sex scenes. And that's a whole another can of worms to open. The default is to not include any non-superficial romance or sex, and side-step the issue. Or, the MC's woman dies to a very major villain and he gets revenge at some point. Very sad.)

Characters dying. Most often side characters that people kinda like, but they don't matter that much in the grand scheme of things.

The MC is a good guy and saves/helps people in need. Everybody depends on them, and ends up looking up at them. Most clearly seen in civilians, women, or small children. (The best is, of course, saving a civilian child girl.) "Heh, it's nothing, anybody would've done the same in my position." smirking attitude. (Savior complex) Freeing slaves or rehabilitating prisoners, healing the sick, giving power to civilians helping them to fight back, killing the rich Robin-Hood-style, all those are also relatively common. They could start their own religion if they wanted to, with them as the heavens-chosen prophet. 

Two main MC archetypes. The loner semi-autistic "loser" gamer type (kind of anime-like protag, with a small amount of edge), or the incredible gigachad (he goes to the gym four times a day, btw. He got laid 3 times a day back on Earth.) Both are perfectly willing to slaughter their enemies and rip their hearts out with their bare hands. (For the greater good, obviously.) Also, the loser-type will (relatively quickly) evolve into the gigachad type either way.

Grinding. Hungry for success. They deserve all the power they're bathing in, they worked hard for it after all! Harder than anyone else in existence!

Strong atheistic lean and feel of the MC, if not outright anti-theistic rants. Smug, looking down on others. If the MC's views over politics are mentioned, they're mostly the same widely accepted current modern default (moderately leftist/liberal), if not outright socialism in a few cases. (Usually real-world politics are avoided, though. No matter what your MC thinks, a percentage of the audience will get offended. But those readers that 100% agree will spam "BASED BASED BASED" and start liking the MC twice as much.) "Let's create a free commune! Share the wealth! Save the poor!" The richest people the MC meets are always villains he ends taking down. But in essence, the way the MC acts and how the story world is structured is mostly incredibly selfish / patriarchal / monarchial / capitalistic by default, an every-man-for-himself thing, eye-for-an-eye ruthless brutality, "you are where you are in life because of the choices you made", the powerful are in every way superior to the powerless, etc. So it's kind of "best of both worlds", if I described it well...? 

Courageous, proactive MC. They don't shy away from challenge, they bask in challenges and make stuff happen, the kind of people that change the world and are remembered in history books for thousands of years after they die. The origins of myths and legends.

Beating opponents way above their power levels. Winning unbeatable battles, and reaping incredible rewards from it. (Plot armor.) Needs very good excuses, though.

Everybody agreeing with the MC and commenting on how wise he is, always going with their ideas and suggestions, etc. They're clearly the leader, the alpha of the pack (but sort of humble about it!). They don't want to be responsible, but sadly, they carry the burden of responsibility and leadership. The ideal of the sigma!

Tragic backstories. Orphaned, one or both parents dead. Little family connections, few friends, perhaps even depressed or suicidal. (Like, 50% of MCs admit they were suicidal sooner or later.) They fit better in the new world than in the old one, they were born for it. 

Also about the MC's gender: I see I used "he" and "they" interchangably. I think the default is to have a male MC. If you want a female MC (the cover will look so good!), basically you just need to write the exact same character you would anyways, but with a female name. Half the readers will self-project anyways. A bonus is that it opens the opportunity for spicy F on F scenes. (DO NOT, under any circumstance, make the love interest male. That's banned!)

Okay, that's all I've got. That's my view on what works best for the "Progression Fantasy" stuff. I've seen a majority of these in around 10 very successful series. 

Of course, it's not going to work if it's not written well. Quality of writing and prose is the flesh on the skeleton. And there has to be enough pure quantity of the story to consume. Readers want to binge infinite amounts.

Also, I don't claim to be any sort of expert! It's just my take as the reader. And like anybody else, I have my biases!!! Also don't get me wrong, I've enjoyed all of these stories that I read, at least the majority parts of them. I wasn't reading them to hate on them. They're not bad, they're addictive, it's a genre like any other with its tropes (and inversions of tropes), but for some reason they get a really bad rep. (Some of it has to do with people being jealous of the success, I presume?)

I wonder what others think, did I go too far? Did I miss anything crucial? Are there points you strongly disagree with?



Edit: of course, this isn't the only "market" you can aim for 

Ararara Wrote: -snip-

Very good write up, ought to be pinned somewhere on the forums for aspiring KU authors everywhere. I think we've read some of the exact same books... I would just add to make the MC bland enough he's easy to self-insert as, but 'cool' enough the reader wants to self insert as him. And male MC is definitely better- female MC loses you some self-insert points which must be made up for by the inclusion of F/F action, as you said. NEVER add the opposite, of course.

(Just in case, I'll add that I'm typing all this with tongue firmly in cheek!)

Writing to market can be done one of two ways: either look at what's hot right now and capitalize on it with your own variation, or look for a market gap and fill a niche.

Either way, you need to do some research first, mainly by reading and analyzing what you read. Figure out what works and why, then decide what elements of that you want to use in crafting your own.

My story, for example, fills a niche. It will never compete with the big names, but I have steady enough traction.

I'm sure writing to market makes sense but I really need to enjoy what I'm writing.

I personally would write what I love and what is flowing well and then I'd find a site that appreciates that particular genre/ trope.

I don't have the time to read a bunch of webnovels for research and by the time I've read/ researched and written enough chapters to start releasing the trend might have changed. 

Some_Guy_In_A_Robe Wrote: I'm sure writing to market makes sense but I really need to enjoy what I'm writing.

I personally would write what I love and what is flowing well and then I'd find a site that appreciates that particular genre/ trope.

I don't have the time to read a bunch of webnovels for research and by the time I've read/ researched and written enough chapters to start releasing the trend might have changed.

Yeah the trick is to come up with an idea you personally like, then combine it with elements of what's popular to make your own unique spin on things. Like my current story didn't start off as a litrpg when i dreamed it up, but it was fundamentally a fantasy, so it wasn't that hard to take the already existing magic I'd created and add a System and tables to it. Just like that, now I'm writing what I want to write, and readers get to see numbers go up, Everyone wins

Most people on this forums get the trends formula backwards.

Readers aren't infinite resource. They have X amount of time to read, Y limit of actively followed stories, and C amount of money to spend on Patreon. Large chunk of which already belong to Best Rated, Trending, Popular This Week, and other sites. By jumping on a trend, you're competing with stories already way ahead in the race. If you're unable to provide something way better to overthrow competition, you will be scrapping leftovers after them.

No amount of "succesfull" tropes will compensate lack of skills in entertainment. Similiar to how you can't write characters smarter than yourself, you won't connect to your readers if you live an entire galaxy away from them. Tons of stories made it on their own, but people giving tips hardly ever look at anything that doesn't make their annual salary in a month and try to look for the perfect formula that doesn't exists.

Wrote an article about this stuff a few months ago. It's more about the overall framework than the individual tropes, but there should be enough to make it a useful read nonetheless

Ararara Wrote: snip

Amazing comment. Hilarious and heartbreaking. 

InfantryTerminator Wrote: No amount of "succesfull" tropes will compensate lack of skills in entertainment. Similiar to how you can't write characters smarter than yourself, you won't connect to your readers if you live an entire galaxy away from them. Tons of stories made it on their own, but people giving tips hardly ever look at anything that doesn't make their annual salary in a month and try to look for the perfect formula that doesn't exists.

People who read stories about min-maxing are gonna look for a formula, especially on a site that gamifies writing. And there is a formula and it is exploitable. All you really need to do is change the set dressing and come up with a clever gimmick. 
Look at similar genres like cozy mysteries and erotic fiction and you'll find that there's no shortage of people who love a status quo. There's plenty of money and fame to be had if that's what you want. Is it art? That doesn't matter here. Just pump out X amount of words before AI starts writing this stuff. 

My writing is in a more of a hobby direction. I write so I can express my love for fandoms and get views on my fictions.
I write more fanfiction than anything else. Heh.

Putting a spin on a already existing troupe often works. A example of a story that does is, Goblin cave.

Vasili Wrote: People who read stories about min-maxing are gonna look for a formula, especially on a site that gamifies writing. And there is a formula and it is exploitable. All you really need to do is change the set dressing and come up with a clever gimmick. 
Look at similar genres like cozy mysteries and erotic fiction and you'll find that there's no shortage of people who love a status quo. There's plenty of money and fame to be had if that's what you want. Is it art? That doesn't matter here. Just pump out X amount of words before AI starts writing this stuff.

Golden age of eroticas was over YEARS ago. I'm in touch with many veteran erotica writers who've struck a gold mine on Amazon during those times, and nowdays they struggle to stay afloat. Their old readers left as they got a match on Tinder, while their remaining ones now spent money on three cats and astrology. What about new generations of their target audience (young women in desperate need of love and attention, but too old for love songs)? They're reading on Wattpad that provides everything for free, and the only thing they see on Amazon are "classics" who dig heels deep into top ranks for years now.

Also, put yourself into reader's shoes for a minute. Did you ever spent money on Patreon subscriptions? Everyone has a limited budget, and 10$ Patreon subscription cost the same as Netflix/Spotify/and Kindle Unlimited with THOUSANDS of stories (and despite that, a lot of people find it not worth the money). Not only your 15-30 chapters ahead of cheap bionicles knock-off is competing with [Murdergod Behemoths] known as "Best Rated and coo", but you also only providing a small timeskip that can be filled in with free stories, Reddit, Youtube, Facebook, games, anime, and social life. What's two week of hard work for you, is just a yawn for others.

Formula is just another lie made-up by people who can't grasp basics of entertaining, or procrastinate with hands in their pants. Spotting the core interests of readers is very easy, but you need to skills to build upon it. Copycats are just bottom scrapers that get readers who don't pay in first place.

InfantryTerminator Wrote: Formula is just another lie made-up by people who can't grasp basics of entertaining, or procrastinate with hands in their pants. Spotting the core interests of readers is very easy, but you need to skills to build upon it. Copycats are just bottom scrapers that get readers who don't pay in first place.

I think we're in agreement here. I'm not denying that skill and talent aren't necessary, I'm just saying that the if your only aim is to make money than the easiest route is to play to the masses.

Some formulas just work and are the basis of conventional entertainment. Look at The Hero With A Thousand Faces. That formula has been playing out for centuries and people still aren't bored of it. I mean, some people are, and they tend to read more experimental books, but most people aren't even aware that they're reading the same story over and over. For most, the familiarity is the entire appeal. 

A great writing could spend half a decade writing The Recognitions (and see it flop) or he could churn out three novels a year by essentially transcribing anime. I don't think a truly artistic soul would be satisfied with the latter, but he'd certainly be more satisfied with the paycheck. 

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Just watch one of those Isekai anime and churn one of those out but with a slight, unique twist and you'll make it to the top page, baby.

Writing to market only really works well if you have the skills to write anything. And even then I'd not be so sure about that.

I'd rather say focus on what you know about and thus are good at writing about. Finding a fitting market with something good is easier than hitting a perceived market preference.

If you end up with multiple possibilities and need to decide, only then I'd suggest to look at the market.

Im kind of in an odd spot in the market. I'm writing my current story for funsies, but I'd also like it to do well. 

Its a darker cultivation novel, so marketability wise its a bit weird. I've seen sadder novels not do well, and I've seen them do amazingly. Same for cultivation, so its really going to be up in the air for me. 

General advice is find a trope you really like and go from there.  There are a few that are a bit too hot right now and might be looked at as overdone, but there are a few classic genres that have cooled off enough to have some space for newer titles. 

Don't bother by the time you finish your book the market will have changed. Books generally take several years to finish, revise and edit before they're truly completed. Just go write it's not like you don't have 1000+ stories just screaming to get out, right? Naa. It's not like one or more couldn't become a hit. Pifft. *Cough*