So I am considering purchasing the available books of Defiance of the Fall, but some of the reviews make me wary.  Particularly a few reviews that imply that the MCs growth is practically only power based and that he basically just runs around in panic.  Does the character grow in other ways?  Does the MC form any relationships?  Is this one of those MCs scared of his own shadow and too much of a pussy to talk to a member of the opposite or even same sex (Or even one that rationalizes their cowardice to an overwhelming degree until they become more hateable than any villain)?

No, he's not really scared almost ever (except worried for some of his family halfway across the world, trying to make sure they're fine). He's pretty much a gigachad, and perfectly normal with/around women.

There is some character development but it's not the main focus. Like, most of it is a kind of "meditation"/rumination, he grows as a person but not super quickly. All in all it's a pretty great story, not surprising it is one of the most popular ones that ever came from Royalroad, at least check it out to see if you like the beginning!

Ararara Wrote: No, he's not really scared almost ever (except worried for some of his family halfway across the world, trying to make sure they're fine). He's pretty much a gigachad, and perfectly normal with/around women.

There is some character development but it's not the main focus. Like, most of it is a kind of "meditation"/rumination, he grows as a person but not super quickly. All in all it's a pretty great story, not surprising it is one of the most popular ones that ever came from Royalroad, at least check it out to see if you like the beginning!

Thanks for the reply.  I wasn't aware of it's popularity as I only read reviews and ignore ratings (since ratings are so easy to skew).  I asked because my greatest hatred when it comes to books are authors that think letting their characters be social "at all, ever" is somehow not allowed.  Since this seems to take some inspiration from Xianxia novels (whose authors I feel are the greatest sinners in this regard) coupled with some reviews I read, made me think I was getting into another cultivator novel like "80 Years of Signing In at the Cold Palace" where the MC basically cuts himself off from even the idea of having any meaningful relationships.

Well the romance isn't a focus, but there is a lot of "kingdom building", and even politics, which requires talking to a lot of different characters, and also he has various companions throughout the story, some of which he connects with pretty deeply 

And that's all I really ask for.  Romance isn't a requirement, though I never understand why authors so regularly ignore a fundamental part of human existence.  Honestly I've ready so many books/series that would have rocketed in quality if they had just had at least a modicum of acknowledgment towards the idea that Romance exists in human life.  No, the only thing I truly despise is an author that believes having zero connections beyond "you are a being that exists" level is good writing.  Would I prefer romance, yes.  Is it necessary, no, just a little disheartening when it is ignored.

edit: btw, second greatest sin is having romance then never going anywhere with it.  I'm looking at you with this one RomCom anime.  Make a choice dang it!

I decided to buy the first book and have read a few chapters so far.  Can already tell MC is going to annoy me to start, but I'll trust that he gets, if not good, at least less annoying.

Eldebrand Wrote: I decided to buy the first book and have read a few chapters so far.  Can already tell MC is going to annoy me to start, but I'll trust that he gets, if not good, at least less annoying.

The start can be a little rough just because of the nature of it. Still, Defiance of the Fall is my favorite series in the genre. TFD is a solid writer who has made an amazing setting. The world and system building he does is exciting, and if you keep reading you'll get to meet Catheya, who is one of my favorite female characters in all of the RR series I've read.

I loved the start, like the island survival

Ararara Wrote: I loved the start, like the island survival

The start is great, it's just a while before you get to dialogue, which can be a little weird.

I didn't catch it on RR and caught it on kindle unlimited, but I have loved the series and can't wait for the next book. It's the series that inspired me to switch one of my fantasy writings to litRPG. I will have a lot of things inspired by this book in mine I'm sure, I just have to make it different so it's inspired by and not just a bad copy. I whole heartedly recommend Defiance of the Fall to anyone interested in litRPG or even fantasy in general.

I've made it to book 4 so far.  It's well written, but I still kind of hate the MC.  He literally never thinks of the consequences of his actions.  Even when he has an internal monologue about being more careful, he will immediately do some utterly asinine afterwards.  Possibly one of the most ignorant MCs I've ever read, to the point that I almost wish he was one of those lame pervert MCs that Japan like to write.  So far the only characters I genuinely like are Thea, Kenzie, and the general world itself.  Does it get better, or does he remain retarded forever?

Edit: oh yeah and Thwonkin Billy.  He's fun.  

So far he stays mostly an idiot, but he starts to explain his actions better like, "I know this is going to end badly but I have to act this second, and I don't have another option. I would like to do it this way but I can only manage to be the meathead at this stage."  but the world and universe building continues to be amazing IMO. 

I'd say it is quite the running gag that the MC has some absurd good luck and is railroaded by the system/world towards success. It makes some sense in-universe (on many different levels, some new level was even just added around chapter 900) and is properly acknowledged or rather complained by his side-kicks, so it adds quite to the fun. If you insist that an MC has 'earned' their progression in some 'proper' way, then the story might not be something for you, depending on your definition of 'proper'. (And people that only read stories to find something to complain about without giving the story any consideration will likely properly enjoy hating it in that regard).

What the story does really well is that the progression and moving of goal posts is done really well. Every other endless progression story I tried has had the problem that characters getting stronger and stronger while on the other hand still needing motivation and challenges to overcome inevitably reaches some point where there are some significant inconsistencies in there. When they get stronger and overcome problems, it makes no sense in-world that there is still reason for the story to continue. Either the new struggles make no sense or what happened before become meaningless or worst they cross a portal to start in a totally new world with no or almost no relation to the old one. That feeling on inconsistence never happened once for me with this story. Goals shift, but when a challenge is overcome, the next one does not suddenly appear but has already been there for quite some time. No matter how powerful the MC becomes, there is still space to grow. And what comes beyond that is well known before that.

I love the world and the progression.  The author has done really well in that regard.  I really really hate the MC though.  It's not about the luck.  In fact I actually like the idea of an MC who has such high luck that it baffles people (probably because I'm pretty sure my luck stat is negatives).  What I hate is how utterly stupid he is.  It's not even adorable stupidity.  It's utter asinine dumbassery that I'm pretty sure is just getting worse in this tower arc.  Billy is more intelligent than this idiot and would make a fat better MC.  He even constantly tells himself he needs to do something about how utterly stupid he is, then does everything he can to make himself more stupid.  I'm pretty sure everybody lied to me about it getting somewhat better.  It's only getting worse as far as I can tell.

Edit: maybe that's the issue.  Maybe writers keep writing idiot MCs because its harder to write an MC with a brain.  I'm really starting to think that an MCs intelligence is a direct reflection of it's author.

If you're coming into it with the attitude "I'm smarter than the author, why isn't the MC doing the THINGS I WOULD DO IN HIS PLACE WTFF HE'S SO DUMB" then I don't know what to tell you, maybe avoid all webnovels in general and save yourself the mental stress. And btw., that's a really common and often-seen sentiment of negative commenters/reviewers, and I highly doubt that all of them are so much vastly smarter than the authors who actually write the stories. The character have their own thoughts and reasons (or god-forbid, even FLAWS? Make mistakes!?) that readers are not taking into account heavily enough. Not everything has to be a plot hole

The mistakes and flaws I hate are not that they start dumb, but when they do absolutely nothing to improve.  That is what I hate about this MC.  "I need better mental defenses", do nothing to improve and get nearly slaughtered by a mentalist.  "I should be more careful", get even more reckless and nearly get everyone you supposedly care about killed.   It's not being dumb that is the sin.  It's the refusal to do anything about being dumb.  And I've read plenty of Webnovels and books where the MC learns from their mistakes and improves on their flaws.  And I've said the author is a good writer.  It's like Tolkien so far.  Tolkien was a great world builder, but his stories were boring (truth hurts, I know).  This guy has an amazing ability to create the world he's writing in, but so far Zac is absolute trash.  Another example of infuriating MC that never learns and continues to make the same stupid mistakes, but has a really good world would be Library of Heavens Path.  It basically comes down to one thing.  Power Creep is not character growth.  Goku is just as much a trash character as Zac is so far.

Eldebrand Wrote: Maybe writers keep writing idiot MCs because its harder to write an MC with a brain.  I'm really starting to think that an MCs intelligence is a direct reflection of it's author.

The man is writing 5 chapters a week for more than three years with excellent prose, amazing world-building, and engaging plots. And you blame him for the lack of character development, smh. I'd liked to see how would you write.

Well one, I refuse to write in the Webnovel episodic daily release style.  I personally believe that doing so ruins what could be great stories.  Secondly, who should I blame if not the author for lack of character growth?  Does the frequency of his writing somehow create a shield against criticism?  I'll admit that the "self insert" comment might be a bit petulant, but I still stand by it's possibility.  And why shouldn't I complain about the lack of character growth?  If the author has 3/4 aspects of good story telling down, how much better could his work be if he manages to improve on that last aspect.  The fact of the matter is that so far, through multiple books and hundreds of chapters, the authors one failing is his character growth.  So that is what needs to be pointed out so his work can improve.  If he can get a good handle of proper character growth and bring it in line with his world building and prose, he gets one step closer to mastering his craft. 

P.S. nobody wants to read what I write.  I write technical manuals for legacy systems in automation.  I don't need to be a fantasy author to understand what is lacking.

What I meant was while the mc's intelligence is likely related to the author's, there are many other factors. In the case of DOTF, the author is clearly a genius, but he suffers from fast uploads. In web novels, content is the king. I too would like to read his work when he spent years on a single book, but it is what it is.

Ps: You don't need to be a fantasy author to understand what is lacking, but if you were one, you'd know what kind of a feat he is pulling off.

Him saying "okay I'm gonna increase my mental defenses" and then grinding it out, to appease the  few readers who are paranoid about ANY POSSIBLE ways in which an OP Zac could still potentially lose a fight... How is that character growth? I'd call that paranoid min-maxing idk. It's really not that big a deal if he can lose to a mentalist once or twice in the story. He has to keep track of 300 things at once, hard to find the time to get to them all