One of my favorite POVs to write from is the second person and, unfortunately, I hardly ever see it. I think it's a tremendous tool to put the reader very close to the characters shoes, you can make them really feel like they are in the story or being addressed directly. It has always given me the feel of a silent protagonist in video games (which I also feel has yet to reach it's full potential, don't get me started on that, haha).

So, what do you guys think, have you ever used second person in one of your stories? Like it, hate it? And also, if you could recommend me some second person novels on here that would be amazing, too :) 

I have to agree, second person seems to have a lot of untapped potential. I feel like short stories and character studies could be especially suited to this POV; hoping to try it out in a short piece when I have the time.

I also feel like some of the unnaturalness of first-person narration is offset by second-person. Often when reading 1st, I’ll have to adjust to not thinking ‘I? I’m not doing that.’ Though with 2nd, it more closely resembles how my inner monologue goes ‘alright, finished abc task, now you have to do xyz task’, even when it’s evident that the ‘you’ doesn’t refer to the reader.

No novel recs, unfortunately; it really does seem to be under-utilised!

I hate it. I'm not saying it can't be used for specific purposes, but it cannot be used to write a character, only a blank slate for the reader to project onto. That's totally fine in a visual novel or a choose your own adventure game. Anything where input from the reader matters. At that point, you are making the reader the main character. Any characterization will come from those choices. Nothing is pushed onto the reader.

The second you try to make give any traits to 'you' as a character, though? It explodes. The most vivid example I can think of was when a 2nd-person story had a sentence that went something like: "You put on your silver Nike Air sports shoes, they're a bit old but still your favorites." It catapulted me out of the story immediately. That's not me. I don't like sports shoes. In any other kind of PoV, that sentence would have told us something about the character, but not in 2nd-person. In 2nd-person, anything you tell us about the character can only drive a wedge. As a result, you cannot make the reader closer to the character with this PoV. They have to be the character, and the character can portray no preferences of their own that would shatter that illusion.

The silent protagonist is an interesting example. The same logic applies there. They are silent because the goal is to strip as many character traits away as possible, to make this blank slate that you can project onto and immerse into the story. To borrow a phrase: "They aren't characters, they are pants. You wear them."

I agree that it's underrated, but would say it's not underused. It's a hard way to write well, and a whole novel's worth of second person could pretty easily go off the rails. The conventional wisdom seems to be that readers often find it distracting, since being addressed directly by the writer as if they were someone they aren't can do a number on their suspension of disbelief; whether that's an actual fact is I guess up for debate. Mostly you see it in shorter work; essays, short stories, not to mention pretty extensively found in internet pop writing like Buzzfeed (that makes sense, as this is the sort of writing most incentivized to address the reader directly and can do so in a way that doesn't imply the reader is actually someone else). Otherwise, I think second person can definitely be a good spice to throw into stories that are otherwise third and first person, a nice little stylistic trick in the right circumstances.

As for recommendations... I'm cheating a bit here, but epistolary novels sort of dip into second person even if ultimately it's centered on first person—this is a good way to do it without much risk of alienating the reader, as it feels more like stumbling into a secret conversation you aren't actually a part of. Laclos' Dangerous Liaisons is probably my favorite, but for something more modern I've been getting through Machine Dreams by Jayne Phillips and it's pretty good so far.

CrowsCrowCrow Wrote: I hate it. I'm not saying it can't be used for specific purposes, but it cannot be used to write a character, only a blank slate for the reader to project onto. That's totally fine in a visual novel or a choose your own adventure game. Anything where input from the reader matters. At that point, you are making the reader the main character. Any characterization will come from those choices. Nothing is pushed onto the reader.

The second you try to make give any traits to 'you' as a character, though? It explodes. The most vivid example I can think of was when a 2nd-person story had a sentence that went something like: "You put on your silver Nike Air sports shoes, they're a bit old but still your favorites." It catapulted me out of the story immediately. That's not me. I don't like sports shoes. In any other kind of PoV, that sentence would have told us something about the character, but not in 2nd-person. In 2nd-person, anything you tell us about the character can only drive a wedge. As a result, you cannot make the reader closer to the character with this PoV. They have to be the character, and the character can portray no preferences of their own that would shatter that illusion.

The silent protagonist is an interesting example. The same logic applies there. They are silent because the goal is to strip as many character traits away as possible, to make this blank slate that you can project onto and immerse into the story. To borrow a phrase: "They aren't characters, they are pants. You wear them."

I think that's the current understanding of second person and silent protagonists, yes. But I think there is untapped potential to explore the intersect of reader/player and character. The best example I can give of the ways I want to see second person used is in Metal Gear Solid 2. 

SPOILERS FOR THE END OF METAL GEAR SOLID 2:

Early on, the game asks for your name. You can name the main character anything you want. It is basically the player taking a certain level of ownership over the character. It is never brought up in the story, the character goes by a code name, but to you and the character, his real name is whatever you chose. 

Well, at the end of the game, Raiden takes off the dog tag that has the players name on it. And he throws it away. It symbolizes that he has taken the reigns of his life back and we will no longer be able to control his actions. 

And, I should also mention, he isn't a silent protagonist. He has opinions and views all his own, but the player controls his actions. I feel that the second person narrative can also be used in a similar manner. The reader controls the decisions, but there is a disconnect. The fill in character is showing signs of existing, of thinking for itself. I feel there is a lot of story potential to explore there. On what it means to be a reader or to take a deciding role in the narrative. 

But I totally get where you're coming from. The way you describe is usually how it's used. But I just feel like there is so much untapped potential there, for second person and silent protagonists. It's an avenue to explore the intersections of character and reader/player.

Anodyne Wrote: I have to agree, second person seems to have a lot of untapped potential. I feel like short stories and character studies could be especially suited to this POV; hoping to try it out in a short piece when I have the time.

I also feel like some of the unnaturalness of first-person narration is offset by second-person. Often when reading 1st, I’ll have to adjust to not thinking ‘I? I’m not doing that.’ Though with 2nd, it more closely resembles how my inner monologue goes ‘alright, finished abc task, now you have to do xyz task’, even when it’s evident that the ‘you’ doesn’t refer to the reader.

No novel recs, unfortunately; it really does seem to be under-utilised!

I agree completely! There just seems to be a lot still left to do with the POV but it's like everyone has given up on it before it reached it's full potential :( 

If you post those stories here please link me to them! :D 

Hm, I didn't think about that, you're right. I do that too when I am planning out things I gotta do. That's really interesting :) 

And darn! I thought there might be some since there is a Reader Interaction tag here. 

wiserthanthou Wrote: I think that's the current understanding of second person and silent protagonists, yes. But I think there is untapped potential to explore the intersect of reader/player and character. The best example I can give of the ways I want to see second person used is in Metal Gear Solid 2. 

SPOILERS FOR THE END OF METAL GEAR SOLID 2:

Early on, the game asks for your name. You can name the main character anything you want. It is basically the player taking a certain level of ownership over the character. It is never brought up in the story, the character goes by a code name, but to you and the character, his real name is whatever you chose. 

Well, at the end of the game, Raiden takes off the dog tag that has the players name on it. And he throws it away. It symbolizes that he has taken the reigns of his life back and we will no longer be able to control his actions. 

And, I should also mention, he isn't a silent protagonist. He has opinions and views all his own, but the player controls his actions. I feel that the second person narrative can also be used in a similar manner. The reader controls the decisions, but there is a disconnect. The fill in character is showing signs of existing, of thinking for itself. I feel there is a lot of story potential to explore there. On what it means to be a reader or to take a deciding role in the narrative.

I haven't played MGS2, but I don't see how any of this is 2nd-person? It's just 3rd-person by the sounds of it.
Maybe you could elaborate further?

JR Wrote: I agree that it's underrated, but would say it's not underused. It's a hard way to write well, and a whole novel's worth of second person could pretty easily go off the rails. The conventional wisdom seems to be that readers often find it distracting, since being addressed directly by the writer as if they were someone they aren't can do a number on their suspension of disbelief; whether that's an actual fact is I guess up for debate. Mostly you see it in shorter work; essays, short stories, not to mention pretty extensively found in internet pop writing like Buzzfeed (that makes sense, as this is the sort of writing most incentivized to address the reader directly and can do so in a way that doesn't imply the reader is actually someone else). Otherwise, I think second person can definitely be a good spice to throw into stories that are otherwise third and first person, a nice little stylistic trick in the right circumstances.

As for recommendations... I'm cheating a bit here, but epistolary novels sort of dip into second person even if ultimately it's centered on first person—this is a good way to do it without much risk of alienating the reader, as it feels more like stumbling into a secret conversation you aren't actually a part of. Laclos' Dangerous Liaisons is probably my favorite, but for something more modern I've been getting through Machine Dreams by Jayne Phillips and it's pretty good so far.

Yeah, you're probably right about that. My main story that I've written where second person is used a lot, is used alongside other point of views. It definitely helps to use it as a spice. I still really like the disconnect that can happen, that doesnt throw me out of it but gets my mind buzzing with what could really be going on in the story. Like I've seen some novels written as a letter toward a You. And in that case it completely makes sense. We are reading a letter to another character. I just know there are more creative ways to use it, yet realized. 

I will have to check those out! Thank you so much for the recommendations :) 

CrowsCrowCrow Wrote:

wiserthanthou Wrote: I think that's the current understanding of second person and silent protagonists, yes. But I think there is untapped potential to explore the intersect of reader/player and character. The best example I can give of the ways I want to see second person used is in Metal Gear Solid 2. 

SPOILERS FOR THE END OF METAL GEAR SOLID 2:

Early on, the game asks for your name. You can name the main character anything you want. It is basically the player taking a certain level of ownership over the character. It is never brought up in the story, the character goes by a code name, but to you and the character, his real name is whatever you chose. 

Well, at the end of the game, Raiden takes off the dog tag that has the players name on it. And he throws it away. It symbolizes that he has taken the reigns of his life back and we will no longer be able to control his actions. 

And, I should also mention, he isn't a silent protagonist. He has opinions and views all his own, but the player controls his actions. I feel that the second person narrative can also be used in a similar manner. The reader controls the decisions, but there is a disconnect. The fill in character is showing signs of existing, of thinking for itself. I feel there is a lot of story potential to explore there. On what it means to be a reader or to take a deciding role in the narrative.

I haven't played MGS2, but I don't see how any of this is 2nd-person? It's just 3rd-person by the sounds of it.
Maybe you could elaborate further?

 The player is controlling a character in the game. Similarly how a second person narrative can be used in a Choose Your Own Adventure kind of way. The player/reader is making choices to bring the character to possible endings. Well, in MGS2, the avatar of the player throws them away in the end and decides to make choices for himself. He essentially becomes a sentient character that doesn't need the player to decide for him anymore. 

Its playing with the connection the player has with their game avatar. I think second person can be used similarly, to play with what it means to be a reader. 

My story Big Red Button is a "me" narrating "you". But then, it's also slightly a CYOA. I agree with Crows that, if you write in second person, you can't give details about the character. You almost have to have options available for, say, eating ice cream or not eating ice cream. What I personally would do in any given situation might not be what any other person on this forum would. When writing second person, you have to take that into consideration.

If you aren't doing that, then IMO you're writing a limited third pov story about someone whose pronouns are "you".

Mad Wrote: My story Big Red Button is a "me" narrating "you". But then, it's also slightly a CYOA. I agree with Crows that, if you write in second person, you can't give details about the character. You almost have to have options available for, say, eating ice cream or not eating ice cream. What I personally would do in any given situation might not be what any other person on this forum would. When writing second person, you have to take that into consideration.

If you aren't doing that, then IMO you're writing a limited third pov story about someone whose pronouns are "you".

I think there are different ways to approach it, the second person is not as cut and dry as all that. It can be used in a number of ways. I think there is room to explore it and try new things without getting bogged down on what it is "supposed" to be. 

I am writing a story where it is half second person (the main character) and half first person. In the second person, the character was and is someone that already exists but something happens and now there is an element of control being placed on the reader. There are then Choose Your Own Adventure like elements. So, basically, the character exists on their own, but the reader does too. And the reader is using their influence to shape this character in new ways that they might not have done on their own. 

Stuff like that :) I love playing with POV and reader expectations and giving them some input into the story that is unfolding. Second person is one way (maybe the only way) of accomplishing that. 

I am all for experimentation :)

I am questioning if I am mixing 1st and 2nd in my current story and the impact. Sighs; still rough and needs editing - so excuse this, 3rd is my normal. But I am using 'I' and 'You'. 

Quote:Starts =
Well hello, I am pleased you have popped along to join us.

Oi! I am talking to you! Yes, you - the reader. That's right.

Great, now we have that sorted, I wanted to ask if you like stories where the hero dies over and over again?

Later = 
Should they not do this to your satisfaction, I want to know. Just drop a message addressed to Deimos in the comments and inform me of their incompetence. I will read them and act accordingly. You are also welcome to verbalize any possible punishments; a beating, a few days of starvation, walking on hot coals, and well anything really. A scribe can be replaced.

Any messages directed to me that I find amusing, I may respond to. For a few moments, I will lift you from your monotony as an NPC and let you become part of the game. A word of warning, do so only if you think you have what it takes to handle the transition to becoming a nonperson again. Such things are known to cause you fragile humans, great misery. Obviously, any posts not directed to me will be dealt with by the scribe.

I have read two stories written in the second person that were extremely good. One was an isekia sort of thing, were you jump off the roof of a ten story building but don't die. Instead you end up confused as a fighter in a Star Wars/Spaceship Troopers sort of war in a Matrix Reloaded sort of world.

The second story was set in the modern world, where you find yourself to be a detective attempting to solve a serial killer murder mystery without either getting killed yourself, or allowing the killer to escape, or another person geting killed.

Both were awesome because, when done right, a story written in the second person has a surprise in almost every single sentence. The key to it is to not let the reader know a single thing about themselves as the MC at the onset of the story -- you write the story as if the reader knows in advance who they are, as all of us do.

Then -- OH! I'm a woman! OH! I'm a cop! OH! Someone has been murdered. OH! It's up to me to solve it.

The murder mystery was especially intriguing, as you never knew what was lurking around the next corner, or what the next minute would bring. And by YOU being the MC, the fear and suspense was palpable.

Oh. It also helps to make the story extremely simple, using easy to read sentences and a linear plot. That way as the reader, you plow through the book as fast as possible, cuz -- gosh! I just gotta know what's gonna happen to me!

🦖

I often write oneshots in second person, but usually convert them to third or first for posting.

It's hard to stick with it for very long though. I don't think I could write a full novel in second without serious effort.

Scribe Wrote: I am all for experimentation :)

I am questioning if I am mixing 1st and 2nd in my current story and the impact. Sighs; still rough and needs editing - so excuse this, 3rd is my normal. But I am using 'I' and 'You'. 

Quote:Starts =
Well hello, I am pleased you have popped along to join us.

Oi! I am talking to you! Yes, you - the reader. That's right.

Great, now we have that sorted, I wanted to ask if you like stories where the hero dies over and over again?

Later = 
Should they not do this to your satisfaction, I want to know. Just drop a message addressed to Deimos in the comments and inform me of their incompetence. I will read them and act accordingly. You are also welcome to verbalize any possible punishments; a beating, a few days of starvation, walking on hot coals, and well anything really. A scribe can be replaced.

Any messages directed to me that I find amusing, I may respond to. For a few moments, I will lift you from your monotony as an NPC and let you become part of the game. A word of warning, do so only if you think you have what it takes to handle the transition to becoming a nonperson again. Such things are known to cause you fragile humans, great misery. Obviously, any posts not directed to me will be dealt with by the scribe.

Dang dude, I loved that! The last paragraph is especially powerful. Let me know when you post it on here, I'll check it out :) 

ArDeeBurger Wrote: I have read two stories written in the second person that were extremely good. One was an isekia sort of thing, were you jump off the roof of a ten story building but don't die. Instead you end up confused as a fighter in a Star Wars/Spaceship Troopers sort of war in a Matrix Reloaded sort of world.

The second story was set in the modern world, where you find yourself to be a detective attempting to solve a serial killer murder mystery without either getting killed yourself, or allowing the killer to escape, or another person geting killed.

Both were awesome because, when done right, a story written in the second person has a surprise in almost every single sentence. The key to it is to not let the reader know a single thing about themselves as the MC at the onset of the story -- you write the story as if the reader knows in advance who they are, as all of us do.

Then -- OH! I'm a woman! OH! I'm a cop! OH! Someone has been murdered. OH! It's up to me to solve it.

The murder mystery was especially intriguing, as you never knew what was lurking around the next corner, or what the next minute would bring. And by YOU being the MC, the fear and suspense was palpable.

Oh. It also helps to make the story extremely simple, using easy to read sentences and a linear plot. That way as the reader, you plow through the book as fast as possible, cuz -- gosh! I just gotta know what's gonna happen to me!

🦖

YES I agree with all of that so much!!! That is a terrific way to use the perspective. Each detail you learn is a clue of who you/the character are. Thanks so much for your input, man, in getting excited about it all over again, I might have to return to my second person story sooner than I thought! 😁

And oh yes, I've noticed that when writing my second person scenes, they have a different feel to the more traditional first person ones. They are a lot easier for me to write for some reason, that story flows out of me easier than most of the ones I work on. 

Mad Wrote: My story Big Red Button is a "me" narrating "you". But then, it's also slightly a CYOA.

Yoooo, I checked out your story, i LOVE it. Really fun stuff. Very Portal-esque. I'm definitely gonna be reading all of it. You do a new one for every Writeathon? That's so cool 😭 

I don't remember exactly how the detective murder mystery started but I remember how the isekia did, because it was so cool. It was like:

You stand on the edge of the roof and look down. It doesn't scare you like you thought it would, and you wonder why. Your toes are right on the edge. That would be enough to cause most people to step back and gasp, but you don't do either. 

It's like you feel you're not going to die, no matter what you do. Or maybe it feels like you wil die no matter what you do. If you jump or if you step back, you feel you'll die either way. Or maybe you feel like you won't.

So what difference does it make, you think. 

Like that. And then after he jumps rather than falling and going splat, or even talking about the fall, the story went right into a scene where some other guy and the MC is running around with BFG's trying to not get shot by an enemy they can't see. The other guy is the one who's in charge and the MC is kind of confused.

I guess now that I think about it, the MC in both stories were confused -- the jumper guy because he was isekia'd and the detective because she was trying to find a murderer.

I remember a scene in the detective story where the MC was like, one floor away from the murderer in a big house where lots of people were. You went from room to room and then up the stairs, trying to figure out who the murderer is and who they were going to murder. You didn't want to draw her gun unless you had to because the people in the building where friends or aquaintances or somethinig, and you were undercover.

You fail to both stop the murder from happening and capture the culprit, so the you go back through the house, all quiet and non-committal, to see if you can figure out if anyone who is still in the house is the murderer. You find yourself heading out the front door and walking away because you are scared spitless. 

You start acting crazy, and people think you're losing your mind, because you believe the murderer will kill you soon. And now you can't talk to anyone about what you know or what happened, because you walked away from the murder scene. 

It was really a cool story, because the author truly showcased how something like being stalked by a murderer while you're also tasked with bringing him to justice could easily drive you insane. That, plus you didn't know you were a police detective until like the third chapter or so. It even took a while to realize that you were a woman.

So yeah. Second person stories are hard to write and very weird, but a good one is really cool. 😸

Damn!! Those stories sound amazing, oh my god 😭 Is there any way to find them? You read them on here? Any memories of character names or what the titles were like? I would absolutely love to check them out. But even just the little bit you shared from memory was awesome :) 

And I totally agree, there's just something about a second person narrative. 

wiserthanthou Wrote: Damn!! Those stories sound amazing, oh my god 😭 Is there any way to find them? You read them on here? Any memories of character names or what the titles were like? I would absolutely love to check them out. But even just the little bit you shared from memory was awesome :)

I read them online. And I also know they are both long gone.

I remember now more or less how the detective story started. You are chatting with two or three friends who are concerned about your welfare. You have just had some sort of an existential attack, or maybe you fell down and hit your head or you passed out. Whatever it was, you are confused and your friends are making sure you are okay. 

The scene might have taken place in a hospital, but it may have also been at one of the friends houses. Either way, you tell them you're okay, but you kind of really are not. When you have a moment to yourself, you look through your purse, which is how you as the reader find out you're a woman. It contains your drivers license, which is how the reader learns the character's name, and stuff like makeup and your keys.

And a gun. 

You start acting differently after finding the gun. The setting changes and you are in the red light district of town, and you let a guy you seem to know start walking you home. But for some odd reason you get scared before you get near where you live, and you ditch the guy or shoo him away and then race home alone. 

Your friends are with you at some point, or perhaps they get the story of what happened from the guy and come to talk to you about it. Again, you're acting weird.

Then a scene comes in the story where you're at a police station. As the reader, you're confused as to why you're there, until people start talking to you, and you realize your character is a detective trying to stop a serial killer from killing again, which was why you were in the red light district of town.

Sometime soon after this comes the scene where you're in the building or a real big house where someone upstairs gets killed, and you become convinced that it's someone you know who is the killer. You quietly freak out and walk away when you're unsuccessful at figuring out who did it.

A suspenseful scene comes somewhere near this part of the story where the killer sneaks up on you, or perhaps you've cornered them, and they get away by knocking you down or something. Whatever happens, it scares the crap out of you. But again, people you know are nearby, so nothing else happens.

By the end of the story, you have done some really strange things and freaked out a lot of people. The killer either gets away or gets killed in some odd distant fashion, like a plane crash or house fire. I mean, now that I think about it, the author may have alluded to the possibliltiy that you were the killer, but you're like, too schizo to realize it. The ending is written in such a way that you're not sure of who the killer was or if he or she really died. 

The point of the story was to make you as the reader see how you could go mad with fear and guilt, and the mystery of not knowing.

🙀

Oh. And all I remember about the specifics of the story was that the author was a woman and was Danish. It was her first attempt at writing a story in English, and she just felt it was the way people wrote when using the English language. It wasn't until she had started posting it online, and people began interacting with her, that she realized what she had done was write a story in an unusual way.