Re: King’s Diversity Space Tool - What do you think

#21
I'm not sure this is the best forum for this, but I'll bite. It's an extension of the original problem that has plagued 'quota filling' since its inception. The idea was to target subconscious bias by incentivising companies to fill a certain number of roles based on demographic, which meant that they looked at and selected from individuals inside a demographic instead of across demographics.

Putting the flawed nature of the plan aside, the outcome of the incentive was that companies had a new box to tick alongside 'are my workers safe' which are all part of the same problem; companies commit to the letter of the law, not the spirit of it. The law ended up doing very little to help minor or marginalised demographics.

This project is an inevitable outcome of the same problem. Diversity is a profitable market, and it's currently incredibly popular to push it. So companies commit to the letter of diversity, and not its spirit. They're ticking the box that says 'this is diverse' in a way that maximises their profit. So I wouldn't say it is inherently worse then what is already happening, because it isn't. It's just a representation of it.

As much as we like to identify ourselves with groups, extensive data points to there being much bigger differences between people inside groups then across them. Real diversity sits in individualism and that can't be captured by numbers on a spreadsheet.

And honestly? I'd much prefer we cared about the exploitation of the workers in the gaming industry then this.

Re: King’s Diversity Space Tool - What do you think

#22
Also, as a nerd I like graphs and score numbers.

I don't like it personally for the same reasons as most, We know this won't be done as some fun stupid nerd charts, stats, and stuff...Diversity for diversity's sake used to be called "Tokenism" for a reason.

And we know this being a corporate tool will be used as a grading stick against people. I think this is one of the bigger reasons people hate it. It will be used as a way to go "This isn't diverse enough, therefore creator bad." 

Edit Addition: Basically "Write actual characters and don't be a jerk" 

Re: King’s Diversity Space Tool - What do you think

#23
People are incredibly varied and diverse. They just…are. Always have been. So I tend not to panic when I see different forms of media making an attempt to represent them as such. And I’ll probably always be deeply confused by people who -do- get their panties all in a bunch over something so basic. 

As for the concern over “token characters,” the solution is actually more diversity, not less. Can’t have a token fat character if you have 4 fat characters. Can’t have a token gay character if you have 6 gay characters. Etc 

Re: King’s Diversity Space Tool - What do you think

#24
KittraMcBriar Wrote: People are incredibly varied and diverse. They just…are. Always have been. So I tend not to panic when I see different forms of media making an attempt to represent them as such. And I’ll probably always be deeply confused by people who -do- get their panties all in a bunch over something so basic. 

As for the concern over “token characters,” the solution is actually more diversity, not less. Can’t have a token fat character if you have 4 fat characters. Can’t have a token gay character if you have 6 gay characters. Etc


It's less about them being there for most normal people who dislike it and why.

Look at it this way. In my own work there is character named Azuro Marn. He's dark skinned and a foriegner to the lands. I included him in a group of guards who were mostly not of area. This was done because they were somewhat outsiders, much like the main character is. Each of those guards I gave a backstory. I gave them each personalities outside of that fact. I even gave them some want that isn't brought up in the story. They thematically served a purpose and I put effort into their characters.

Now, take some hollywood remake. What reason was there for switching a character around? Why was it done? Social brownie points/marketing/corporate intent. Not because they would make sense to be, not because that would just be a type of person there, not because they wanted to do something interesting or play to some aspect. Often they do it in ways that are directly against lore or, worse, theme.  

It's blatant tokenism a lot of time too. Character's who are entirely "The (aspect)." 

Re: King’s Diversity Space Tool - What do you think

#25
Crusixblade Wrote:
KittraMcBriar Wrote: People are incredibly varied and diverse. They just…are. Always have been. So I tend not to panic when I see different forms of media making an attempt to represent them as such. And I’ll probably always be deeply confused by people who -do- get their panties all in a bunch over something so basic. 

As for the concern over “token characters,” the solution is actually more diversity, not less. Can’t have a token fat character if you have 4 fat characters. Can’t have a token gay character if you have 6 gay characters. Etc




Now, take some hollywood remake. What reason was there for switching a character around? Why was it done? Social brownie points/marketing/corporate intent. Not because they would make sense to be, not because that would just be a type of person there, not because they wanted to do something interesting or play to some aspect. Often they do it in ways that are directly against lore or, worse, theme.  

It's blatant tokenism a lot of time too. Character's who are entirely "The (aspect)."
This is nothing new at all for entertainment. Record companies, and movie studios have been taking whatever the "cool culture" of the day is and boxing it up for mass market for over a hundred years. The only thing that has changed is what they are deciding to sell. It never really seems to matter if it's blatant that they are just doing it all for sales. It's like when the cigarette companies made a bunch of feminist advertising way back because women at the time were shunned by society for smoking. 

Re: King’s Diversity Space Tool - What do you think

#26
J.Weed Wrote:
Crusixblade Wrote:
KittraMcBriar Wrote: People are incredibly varied and diverse. They just…are. Always have been. So I tend not to panic when I see different forms of media making an attempt to represent them as such. And I’ll probably always be deeply confused by people who -do- get their panties all in a bunch over something so basic. 

As for the concern over “token characters,” the solution is actually more diversity, not less. Can’t have a token fat character if you have 4 fat characters. Can’t have a token gay character if you have 6 gay characters. Etc




Now, take some hollywood remake. What reason was there for switching a character around? Why was it done? Social brownie points/marketing/corporate intent. Not because they would make sense to be, not because that would just be a type of person there, not because they wanted to do something interesting or play to some aspect. Often they do it in ways that are directly against lore or, worse, theme.  

It's blatant tokenism a lot of time too. Character's who are entirely "The (aspect)."
This is nothing new at all for entertainment. Record companies, and movie studios have been taking whatever the "cool culture" of the day is and boxing it up for mass market for over a hundred years. The only thing that has changed is what they are deciding to sell. It never really seems to matter if it's blatant that they are just doing it all for sales. It's like when the cigarette companies made a bunch of feminist advertising way back because women at the time were shunned by society for smoking.


People have grown sick of that sort of thing lately. Dislike for corporations is at an all time high. Especially when the marketing is preachy. Not to mention the political hotbed a lot of these things have become, too. 

Re: King’s Diversity Space Tool - What do you think

#27
Lol @ the people saying “but they’re doing it to make money!! :( “

Yeah. So? When the people and companies that produce media realized that women were a demographic with money and a huge capacity for fandom, a lot more stuff got made featuring women and for women and…I think that’s great? Yeah some cringy, pandering shit gets made but lots of great stories and characters come of it, too. 
Again, people -are- diverse. If it takes the motivation of money to get that represented in media…literally who cares? A lot of progress happens because people want money. 

I can absolutely guarantee you that at least 3 things you love are specifically targeted at your demographic for the sake of making money. 

And as for “needing a reason for the diversity,” we’re talking about a company that makes games that take place in a fantasy world. When you’re making up your own worlds, they can be literally anything. It’s not weird that lots of them wouldn’t be totally homogenous. In fact, it’s more realistic. 

Re: King’s Diversity Space Tool - What do you think

#28
As a side note. Beyond the moral, ethical, and such there is another thing. 

I want to point out a reason to find this suspicious for acitivision blizzard. They have a habit of doing virtue signal stuff to hide their wrong doing. 

Ripping off employees, the whole sexual harassment of employees, and such....this time this happened right as they were getting in trouble for union busting stuff. 

Re: King’s Diversity Space Tool - What do you think

#29
KittraMcBriar Wrote: Lol @ the people saying “but they’re doing it to make money!! :( “

Yeah. So? When the people and companies that produce media realized that women were a demographic with money and a huge capacity for fandom, a lot more stuff got made featuring women and for women and…I think that’s great? Yeah some cringy, pandering shit gets made but lots of great stories and characters come of it, too. 
Again, people -are- diverse. If it takes the motivation of money to get that represented in media…literally who cares? A lot of progress happens because people want money. 

And as for “needing a reason for the diversity,” we’re talking about a company that makes games that take place in a fantasy world. When you’re making up your own worlds, they can be literally anything. It’s not weird that lots of them wouldn’t be totally homogenous. In fact, it’s more realistic.
I personally love art that depicts all those things, pushes boundaries, and changes minds. I just would rather support the small guys. Activision's predatory micro transactions aimed at children speak for themselves. I don't really care how much diversity the casino has put up in flashing lights outside when it's the same thing it's always been inside.

Re: King’s Diversity Space Tool - What do you think

#30
J.Weed Wrote:
KittraMcBriar Wrote: Lol @ the people saying “but they’re doing it to make money!! :( “

Yeah. So? When the people and companies that produce media realized that women were a demographic with money and a huge capacity for fandom, a lot more stuff got made featuring women and for women and…I think that’s great? Yeah some cringy, pandering shit gets made but lots of great stories and characters come of it, too. 
Again, people -are- diverse. If it takes the motivation of money to get that represented in media…literally who cares? A lot of progress happens because people want money. 

And as for “needing a reason for the diversity,” we’re talking about a company that makes games that take place in a fantasy world. When you’re making up your own worlds, they can be literally anything. It’s not weird that lots of them wouldn’t be totally homogenous. In fact, it’s more realistic.
I personally love art that depicts all those things, pushes boundaries, and changes minds. I just would rather support the small guys. Activision's predatory micro transactions aimed at children speak for themselves. I don't really care how much diversity the casino has put up in flashing lights outside when it's the same thing it's always been inside.

there is also something to be said about everyone here being creatives in their own right and how people like us can feel a bit insulted when big corporations take such insulting stances on creative works. 

Re: King’s Diversity Space Tool - What do you think

#31
KittraMcBriar Wrote: Lol @ the people saying “but they’re doing it to make money!! :( “

Yeah. So? When the people and companies that produce media realized that women were a demographic with money and a huge capacity for fandom, a lot more stuff got made featuring women and for women and…I think that’s great? Yeah some cringy, pandering shit gets made but lots of great stories and characters come of it, too. 
Again, people -are- diverse. If it takes the motivation of money to get that represented in media…literally who cares? A lot of progress happens because people want money. 

I can absolutely guarantee you that at least 3 things you love are specifically targeted at your demographic for the sake of making money. 

And as for “needing a reason for the diversity,” we’re talking about a company that makes games that take place in a fantasy world. When you’re making up your own worlds, they can be literally anything. It’s not weird that lots of them wouldn’t be totally homogenous. In fact, it’s more realistic.

I don't think people object to any of that. I think people object to the weird quantification of diversity points based off some dumb radar graph. You can easily agree with the objectives of something without approving of the approach taken. 

Re: King’s Diversity Space Tool - What do you think

#32
CloverCloverClover Wrote:
KittraMcBriar Wrote: Lol @ the people saying “but they’re doing it to make money!! :( “

Yeah. So? When the people and companies that produce media realized that women were a demographic with money and a huge capacity for fandom, a lot more stuff got made featuring women and for women and…I think that’s great? Yeah some cringy, pandering shit gets made but lots of great stories and characters come of it, too. 
Again, people -are- diverse. If it takes the motivation of money to get that represented in media…literally who cares? A lot of progress happens because people want money. 

I can absolutely guarantee you that at least 3 things you love are specifically targeted at your demographic for the sake of making money. 

And as for “needing a reason for the diversity,” we’re talking about a company that makes games that take place in a fantasy world. When you’re making up your own worlds, they can be literally anything. It’s not weird that lots of them wouldn’t be totally homogenous. In fact, it’s more realistic.

I don't think people object to any of that. I think people object to the weird quantification of diversity points based off some dumb radar graph. You can easily agree with the objectives of something without approving of the approach taken.

You know, I do think it would be absolutely amazing if, instead of developing software for the purpose, they actually just hired (and listened to) a more varied range of people so that their informed and diverse perspectives could naturally result in more diverse games and stories.
Having worked in the game industry for over a decade, though, I can tell you that a lot of game devs would rather have half their teeth extracted than stop mostly hiring people who resemble themselves—and would give up the other half to avoid actually listening to the few exceptions who manage to make it through. 
I would love to see that change, and I’m involved in efforts to help make it happen. 

Re: King’s Diversity Space Tool - What do you think

#33
KittraMcBriar Wrote: As for the concern over “token characters,” the solution is actually more diversity, not less. Can’t have a token fat character if you have 4 fat characters. Can’t have a token gay character if you have 6 gay characters. Etc
Reminds me of some controversy I saw when I followed the development of a game called Coral Island. 

There are a lot of brown-skinned characters in that game. There are a few white, blond characters as well, but they're a slight minority, and some people did not like that. In some parts of my internet circles there was a lot of nagging about tokenism and forced diversity going too far and stuff like that. 

The kicker is that Coral Island is a farming sim taking place in, if I remember correctly... an island in Indonesia. Apparently, brown people in rural Indonesia is forced tokenism or something. There's no winning lol.