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Re: Advice is advice, not a fixed set of rules. Also, big authors aren't out to get you. Shocking, I know.

#41
A truly popular author's time is better spent writing more product than trying to decieve newbies.  It's just not economical.

Certainly, popular authors could be wrong or misguided.  This was quite an issue in the self-pub community.  But given the business model of patreon or KU publishing, intentional deceit isn't worth it, and trolls who might enjoy it for its own sake are unlikely to be major authors.

The possibility does exist, but it's very low, and generally easy to detect.

Re: Advice is advice, not a fixed set of rules. Also, big authors aren't out to get you. Shocking, I know.

#42
Yeah I've honestly only heard of one noteworthy author in recent memory that tries to screw other authors. It's such a bad move to make that makes you so infamous that you probably already know who I mean. Aleron Kong.

If any other author tried to do the same, they'd quickly get the same treatment. It takes a special kind of person to be a successful writer and yet still be so petty and hateful as to go so far out of their way to screw others over.

Re: Advice is advice, not a fixed set of rules. Also, big authors aren't out to get you. Shocking, I know.

#43

Zogarth Wrote:
TheKingofKirby Wrote:
MelasD Wrote:
TheKingofKirby Wrote: 1.) Giving bad/low quality advice is not what I would consider sabotage. anyone thats been writing knows to be careful with advice. Sabotaging would be intentionally sending readers to attack other stories. I know no pop. author would do that. I would not equate bad/low quality advice to these two things.

2.) The point I was trying to make is would you still give out your knowledge on making money if you knew for certain that it would hurt you monetarily in the long run. 

3.) Did you read the thread but i took it down? If someone summed it up to you then context might have gotten lost. I tried to intentionally make the point that the success of others is against pop. authors' interests.
1) That is fair.


2) Yes. I have given plenty of shoutouts. Hundreds even. And I have seen patrons cancel to join the patreon of someone I shouted out. What's the problem there? It's that I didn't write a story engaging enough to maintain their attention. Not all authors are the same, but assuming that other authors are worried and see each other as threats is false. Because no one on RoyalRoad thinks that way except for a select few. 

3) Yes, I read it. I wrote a reply. But when I tried to post it, it was gone. Which prompted me to write this post.
1.) Glad we can agree on this.


2.) This is why I did not mention anyone by name. I'm sure you and plenty of other pop. authors believe that you are giving genuine feedback. But you validated the point of the post. You said "except a select few" think that way. 

Let me make a comparison. I assume you lock the doors to your house and car every night, right? You dont do it because you assume everyone that passes through your neighbors are robbers though, but because there is the possibility that someone might be, no matter how slim, and you want to protect yourself.

Being skeptical of pop. author advice is the same way. You even said so yourself that there are authors here who see other writers as threats. Dont we have the right to be skeptical? We cant tell who is being genuine or who is being intentionally nefarious. 

Now some people may say I am being too cynical and my post most likely came across that way. I still stand by the fact that other authors succeeding adversely affects you (you even stated you have lost patrons from fellow authors). Buy I do not think all pop authors are out to hinder other stories/writers. I just wanted to say there is a reason for them to do so.
Give a name. Seriously, just DM the name to me. You keep talking about big authors giving bad advice on making money, so give me an example. I happen to talk to most of the biggest authors on the site, and the only thing I have ever seen them do is give genuinly good advice. Melas even linked some of it. Anyone who asks them and gets a response tends to get a helpful message.


I myself have given advice to like a dozen smaller authors and even larger authors. I have discussed improving earnings with many of the big authors, how to improve Patreon setups, and advice on publishing to Amazon.

Contrary to what people seem to assume, i do not subscribe or even believe in the falacious assumption there is a limited pool of Patrons. In fact, I believe any large author expands the entire pool. A big author like Shirt moving to Amazon made a lot of Amazon readers aware of content on Patreon. Made them aware of RR as a website. To assume we all share the same pool is just silly. Sure, some do unsub to subscribe to others on a limited income, but I would bet even more subscribe to you because they began using Patreon due to another author.

In other words, I firmly believe that growing the industry as a whole helps everyone, so why wouldn't I want to expand it by being helpful?


i didn't say that authors give bad advice on making money. I really wish I had the original thread to show everyone exactly how I phrased it. Looking back, I think I put two main themes in at the same time. One was that success of other writers is antagonistic to the success of established authors (although I do agree you made some good points, but I still think in terms of making money, having multiple competitors means less money for a greater number of people). And the other point was that it is best to be skeptical of pop. authors' advice because of this. 

But I can give an example of faulty advice that pretty much every pop. author has given and other authors repeat. 

Just keep writing and readers will come.

This piece of advice is untrue. There are plenty of stories and authors here with thousands of pages or even millions of words that go unread. Even when money is taken out of the equation, pop. authors will say that anyone can get an audience if they just write enough which just straight up isn't true. Not everyone can write. It's just a fact of life, much like how everyone doesn't have what it takes to be an astronaut, a doctor, a soccer player or whatever. Yet no pop. author will say this. Essentially because they want to tell people what they want to hear.

If an author says something like "not everyone is going to be able to build an audience" they'll get derided for pessimistic and trying to put people down despite it being objectively true. So they'd rather imply that anyone can follow their success story and get people writing for months and years only to come up fruitless. To me, that's an example of a pop. author giving bunk advice for the sake of image/profit. Instead of being honest and forthcoming at the cost of some critical comments, they'll let people who don't have a shot waste their time. 

Re: Advice is advice, not a fixed set of rules. Also, big authors aren't out to get you. Shocking, I know.

#44

TheKingofKirby Wrote:
Zogarth Wrote:
TheKingofKirby Wrote:
MelasD Wrote:
TheKingofKirby Wrote: 1.) Giving bad/low quality advice is not what I would consider sabotage. anyone thats been writing knows to be careful with advice. Sabotaging would be intentionally sending readers to attack other stories. I know no pop. author would do that. I would not equate bad/low quality advice to these two things.

2.) The point I was trying to make is would you still give out your knowledge on making money if you knew for certain that it would hurt you monetarily in the long run. 

3.) Did you read the thread but i took it down? If someone summed it up to you then context might have gotten lost. I tried to intentionally make the point that the success of others is against pop. authors' interests.
1) That is fair.


2) Yes. I have given plenty of shoutouts. Hundreds even. And I have seen patrons cancel to join the patreon of someone I shouted out. What's the problem there? It's that I didn't write a story engaging enough to maintain their attention. Not all authors are the same, but assuming that other authors are worried and see each other as threats is false. Because no one on RoyalRoad thinks that way except for a select few. 

3) Yes, I read it. I wrote a reply. But when I tried to post it, it was gone. Which prompted me to write this post.
1.) Glad we can agree on this.


2.) This is why I did not mention anyone by name. I'm sure you and plenty of other pop. authors believe that you are giving genuine feedback. But you validated the point of the post. You said "except a select few" think that way. 

Let me make a comparison. I assume you lock the doors to your house and car every night, right? You dont do it because you assume everyone that passes through your neighbors are robbers though, but because there is the possibility that someone might be, no matter how slim, and you want to protect yourself.

Being skeptical of pop. author advice is the same way. You even said so yourself that there are authors here who see other writers as threats. Dont we have the right to be skeptical? We cant tell who is being genuine or who is being intentionally nefarious. 

Now some people may say I am being too cynical and my post most likely came across that way. I still stand by the fact that other authors succeeding adversely affects you (you even stated you have lost patrons from fellow authors). Buy I do not think all pop authors are out to hinder other stories/writers. I just wanted to say there is a reason for them to do so.
Give a name. Seriously, just DM the name to me. You keep talking about big authors giving bad advice on making money, so give me an example. I happen to talk to most of the biggest authors on the site, and the only thing I have ever seen them do is give genuinly good advice. Melas even linked some of it. Anyone who asks them and gets a response tends to get a helpful message.


I myself have given advice to like a dozen smaller authors and even larger authors. I have discussed improving earnings with many of the big authors, how to improve Patreon setups, and advice on publishing to Amazon.

Contrary to what people seem to assume, i do not subscribe or even believe in the falacious assumption there is a limited pool of Patrons. In fact, I believe any large author expands the entire pool. A big author like Shirt moving to Amazon made a lot of Amazon readers aware of content on Patreon. Made them aware of RR as a website. To assume we all share the same pool is just silly. Sure, some do unsub to subscribe to others on a limited income, but I would bet even more subscribe to you because they began using Patreon due to another author.

In other words, I firmly believe that growing the industry as a whole helps everyone, so why wouldn't I want to expand it by being helpful?


i didn't say that authors give bad advice on making money. I really wish I had the original thread to show everyone exactly how I phrased it. Looking back, I think I put two main themes in at the same time. One was that success of other writers is antagonistic to the success of established authors (although I do agree you made some good points, but I still think in terms of making money, having multiple competitors means less money for a greater number of people). And the other point was that it is best to be skeptical of pop. authors' advice because of this. 

But I can give an example of faulty advice that pretty much every pop. author has given and other authors repeat. 

Just keep writing and readers will come.

This piece of advice is untrue. There are plenty of stories and authors here with thousands of pages or even millions of words that go unread. Even when money is taken out of the equation, pop. authors will say that anyone can get an audience if they just write enough which just straight up isn't true. Not everyone can write. It's just a fact of life, much like how everyone doesn't have what it takes to be an astronaut, a doctor, a soccer player or whatever. Yet no pop. author will say this. Essentially because they want to tell people what they want to hear.

If an author says something like "not everyone is going to be able to build an audience" they'll get derided for pessimistic and trying to put people down despite it being objectively true. So they'd rather imply that anyone can follow their success story and get people writing for months and years only to come up fruitless. To me, that's an example of a pop. author giving bunk advice for the sake of image/profit. Instead of being honest and forthcoming at the cost of some critical comments, they'll let people who don't have a shot waste their time.
Would you mind providing a link to an author with more than 1,000 followers ever saying to "just keep writing and readers will come?"

Re: Advice is advice, not a fixed set of rules. Also, big authors aren't out to get you. Shocking, I know.

#45

Kennit Wrote:
TheKingofKirby Wrote:
Zogarth Wrote:
TheKingofKirby Wrote:
MelasD Wrote:
TheKingofKirby Wrote: 1.) Giving bad/low quality advice is not what I would consider sabotage. anyone thats been writing knows to be careful with advice. Sabotaging would be intentionally sending readers to attack other stories. I know no pop. author would do that. I would not equate bad/low quality advice to these two things.

2.) The point I was trying to make is would you still give out your knowledge on making money if you knew for certain that it would hurt you monetarily in the long run. 

3.) Did you read the thread but i took it down? If someone summed it up to you then context might have gotten lost. I tried to intentionally make the point that the success of others is against pop. authors' interests.
1) That is fair.


2) Yes. I have given plenty of shoutouts. Hundreds even. And I have seen patrons cancel to join the patreon of someone I shouted out. What's the problem there? It's that I didn't write a story engaging enough to maintain their attention. Not all authors are the same, but assuming that other authors are worried and see each other as threats is false. Because no one on RoyalRoad thinks that way except for a select few. 

3) Yes, I read it. I wrote a reply. But when I tried to post it, it was gone. Which prompted me to write this post.
1.) Glad we can agree on this.


2.) This is why I did not mention anyone by name. I'm sure you and plenty of other pop. authors believe that you are giving genuine feedback. But you validated the point of the post. You said "except a select few" think that way. 

Let me make a comparison. I assume you lock the doors to your house and car every night, right? You dont do it because you assume everyone that passes through your neighbors are robbers though, but because there is the possibility that someone might be, no matter how slim, and you want to protect yourself.

Being skeptical of pop. author advice is the same way. You even said so yourself that there are authors here who see other writers as threats. Dont we have the right to be skeptical? We cant tell who is being genuine or who is being intentionally nefarious. 

Now some people may say I am being too cynical and my post most likely came across that way. I still stand by the fact that other authors succeeding adversely affects you (you even stated you have lost patrons from fellow authors). Buy I do not think all pop authors are out to hinder other stories/writers. I just wanted to say there is a reason for them to do so.
Give a name. Seriously, just DM the name to me. You keep talking about big authors giving bad advice on making money, so give me an example. I happen to talk to most of the biggest authors on the site, and the only thing I have ever seen them do is give genuinly good advice. Melas even linked some of it. Anyone who asks them and gets a response tends to get a helpful message.


I myself have given advice to like a dozen smaller authors and even larger authors. I have discussed improving earnings with many of the big authors, how to improve Patreon setups, and advice on publishing to Amazon.

Contrary to what people seem to assume, i do not subscribe or even believe in the falacious assumption there is a limited pool of Patrons. In fact, I believe any large author expands the entire pool. A big author like Shirt moving to Amazon made a lot of Amazon readers aware of content on Patreon. Made them aware of RR as a website. To assume we all share the same pool is just silly. Sure, some do unsub to subscribe to others on a limited income, but I would bet even more subscribe to you because they began using Patreon due to another author.

In other words, I firmly believe that growing the industry as a whole helps everyone, so why wouldn't I want to expand it by being helpful?


i didn't say that authors give bad advice on making money. I really wish I had the original thread to show everyone exactly how I phrased it. Looking back, I think I put two main themes in at the same time. One was that success of other writers is antagonistic to the success of established authors (although I do agree you made some good points, but I still think in terms of making money, having multiple competitors means less money for a greater number of people). And the other point was that it is best to be skeptical of pop. authors' advice because of this. 

But I can give an example of faulty advice that pretty much every pop. author has given and other authors repeat. 

Just keep writing and readers will come.

This piece of advice is untrue. There are plenty of stories and authors here with thousands of pages or even millions of words that go unread. Even when money is taken out of the equation, pop. authors will say that anyone can get an audience if they just write enough which just straight up isn't true. Not everyone can write. It's just a fact of life, much like how everyone doesn't have what it takes to be an astronaut, a doctor, a soccer player or whatever. Yet no pop. author will say this. Essentially because they want to tell people what they want to hear.

If an author says something like "not everyone is going to be able to build an audience" they'll get derided for pessimistic and trying to put people down despite it being objectively true. So they'd rather imply that anyone can follow their success story and get people writing for months and years only to come up fruitless. To me, that's an example of a pop. author giving bunk advice for the sake of image/profit. Instead of being honest and forthcoming at the cost of some critical comments, they'll let people who don't have a shot waste their time.
Would you mind providing a link to an author with more than 1,000 followers ever saying to "just keep writing and readers will come?"
I could, but I don't want to call anyone out. I don't want anyone specifically to think that they're the purpose I made the original thread. 

Re: Advice is advice, not a fixed set of rules. Also, big authors aren't out to get you. Shocking, I know.

#46

TheKingofKirby Wrote:
Kennit Wrote:
TheKingofKirby Wrote:
Zogarth Wrote:
TheKingofKirby Wrote:
MelasD Wrote:
TheKingofKirby Wrote: 1.) Giving bad/low quality advice is not what I would consider sabotage. anyone thats been writing knows to be careful with advice. Sabotaging would be intentionally sending readers to attack other stories. I know no pop. author would do that. I would not equate bad/low quality advice to these two things.

2.) The point I was trying to make is would you still give out your knowledge on making money if you knew for certain that it would hurt you monetarily in the long run. 

3.) Did you read the thread but i took it down? If someone summed it up to you then context might have gotten lost. I tried to intentionally make the point that the success of others is against pop. authors' interests.
1) That is fair.


2) Yes. I have given plenty of shoutouts. Hundreds even. And I have seen patrons cancel to join the patreon of someone I shouted out. What's the problem there? It's that I didn't write a story engaging enough to maintain their attention. Not all authors are the same, but assuming that other authors are worried and see each other as threats is false. Because no one on RoyalRoad thinks that way except for a select few. 

3) Yes, I read it. I wrote a reply. But when I tried to post it, it was gone. Which prompted me to write this post.
1.) Glad we can agree on this.


2.) This is why I did not mention anyone by name. I'm sure you and plenty of other pop. authors believe that you are giving genuine feedback. But you validated the point of the post. You said "except a select few" think that way. 

Let me make a comparison. I assume you lock the doors to your house and car every night, right? You dont do it because you assume everyone that passes through your neighbors are robbers though, but because there is the possibility that someone might be, no matter how slim, and you want to protect yourself.

Being skeptical of pop. author advice is the same way. You even said so yourself that there are authors here who see other writers as threats. Dont we have the right to be skeptical? We cant tell who is being genuine or who is being intentionally nefarious. 

Now some people may say I am being too cynical and my post most likely came across that way. I still stand by the fact that other authors succeeding adversely affects you (you even stated you have lost patrons from fellow authors). Buy I do not think all pop authors are out to hinder other stories/writers. I just wanted to say there is a reason for them to do so.
Give a name. Seriously, just DM the name to me. You keep talking about big authors giving bad advice on making money, so give me an example. I happen to talk to most of the biggest authors on the site, and the only thing I have ever seen them do is give genuinly good advice. Melas even linked some of it. Anyone who asks them and gets a response tends to get a helpful message.


I myself have given advice to like a dozen smaller authors and even larger authors. I have discussed improving earnings with many of the big authors, how to improve Patreon setups, and advice on publishing to Amazon.

Contrary to what people seem to assume, i do not subscribe or even believe in the falacious assumption there is a limited pool of Patrons. In fact, I believe any large author expands the entire pool. A big author like Shirt moving to Amazon made a lot of Amazon readers aware of content on Patreon. Made them aware of RR as a website. To assume we all share the same pool is just silly. Sure, some do unsub to subscribe to others on a limited income, but I would bet even more subscribe to you because they began using Patreon due to another author.

In other words, I firmly believe that growing the industry as a whole helps everyone, so why wouldn't I want to expand it by being helpful?


i didn't say that authors give bad advice on making money. I really wish I had the original thread to show everyone exactly how I phrased it. Looking back, I think I put two main themes in at the same time. One was that success of other writers is antagonistic to the success of established authors (although I do agree you made some good points, but I still think in terms of making money, having multiple competitors means less money for a greater number of people). And the other point was that it is best to be skeptical of pop. authors' advice because of this. 

But I can give an example of faulty advice that pretty much every pop. author has given and other authors repeat. 

Just keep writing and readers will come.

This piece of advice is untrue. There are plenty of stories and authors here with thousands of pages or even millions of words that go unread. Even when money is taken out of the equation, pop. authors will say that anyone can get an audience if they just write enough which just straight up isn't true. Not everyone can write. It's just a fact of life, much like how everyone doesn't have what it takes to be an astronaut, a doctor, a soccer player or whatever. Yet no pop. author will say this. Essentially because they want to tell people what they want to hear.

If an author says something like "not everyone is going to be able to build an audience" they'll get derided for pessimistic and trying to put people down despite it being objectively true. So they'd rather imply that anyone can follow their success story and get people writing for months and years only to come up fruitless. To me, that's an example of a pop. author giving bunk advice for the sake of image/profit. Instead of being honest and forthcoming at the cost of some critical comments, they'll let people who don't have a shot waste their time.
Would you mind providing a link to an author with more than 1,000 followers ever saying to "just keep writing and readers will come?"
I could, but I don't want to call anyone out. I don't want anyone specifically to think that they're the purpose I made the original thread.
It's very important to call out bad behavior, otherwise people might listen to bad advise without knowing its bad advise.

Re: Advice is advice, not a fixed set of rules. Also, big authors aren't out to get you. Shocking, I know.

#47
Do I think popular authors are money grubby, mustache twirling, backstabbing? Nah, no one healthy has time for that. However, have I seen bigger authors be assholes to much smaller ones for certain Things? Yes. I have this happen twice when giving reviews where the authors who were bigger than me either never gave their end of the bargain or got very snippy with my review in private. And I just let it slide because 1) they were bigger with more followers/reviews/favorites then me and 2) what is me getting back at them with anger gonna do for me, a much smaller author who would be seen as causing issues.

And the same has happened with authors smaller than me, being rude or hurtful in private. It's a pretty grey issue tbh and I will say there have been authors I've seen come and go over the years who clearly had ego issues from various platforms. 

Re: Advice is advice, not a fixed set of rules. Also, big authors aren't out to get you. Shocking, I know.

#49

OverclockBeta Wrote: Is there a point to all this pedantry?  Being encouraging is not lying to people.

You do in fact have to keep writing to get an audience.

The problem with that is that if you are writing to get an audience, you have to do more than "just write."


You have to know what people want to read, and then write that, so that they read it, and become your audience.

Now, I don't mean you have to pander 100% of your work to what you believe the current market is looking for, but you do need to know what topics to avoid, at the very least. People on RR typically don't like main characters that don't have agency, and that's not something a writer can fix by just "writing more." 

Readers decide whether to read a story within the first paragraph (sometimes) so if your first 50 chapters have the main character being a slave, and they're not at chapter 51 because you realized agency is important, its not going to get you any readers.

You do have to keep writing, but that means starting over when you realize that a story isn't salvageable. 

Re: Advice is advice, not a fixed set of rules. Also, big authors aren't out to get you. Shocking, I know.

#50

Kennit Wrote:
OverclockBeta Wrote: Is there a point to all this pedantry?  Being encouraging is not lying to people.

You do in fact have to keep writing to get an audience.

The problem with that is that if you are writing to get an audience, you have to do more than "just write."


You have to know what people want to read, and then write that, so that they read it, and become your audience.

Now, I don't mean you have to pander 100% of your work to what you believe the current market is looking for, but you do need to know what topics to avoid, at the very least. People on RR typically don't like main characters that don't have agency, and that's not something a writer can fix by just "writing more." 

Readers decide whether to read a story within the first paragraph (sometimes) so if your first 50 chapters have the main character being a slave, and they're not at chapter 51 because you realized agency is important, its not going to get you any readers.

You do have to keep writing, but that means starting over when you realize that a story isn't salvageable.



Absolutely.  But it's not a malicious lie.  It's not "deception".  Popular authors aren't being encouraging to screw anyone over.


As for the debate about writing to the market or not, that's a whole other thread.  But I'd say you're leaving out quite a few factors.

Re: Advice is advice, not a fixed set of rules. Also, big authors aren't out to get you. Shocking, I know.

#51

Kennit Wrote:
OverclockBeta Wrote: Is there a point to all this pedantry?  Being encouraging is not lying to people.

You do in fact have to keep writing to get an audience.

The problem with that is that if you are writing to get an audience, you have to do more than "just write."


You have to know what people want to read, and then write that, so that they read it, and become your audience.

Now, I don't mean you have to pander 100% of your work to what you believe the current market is looking for, but you do need to know what topics to avoid, at the very least. People on RR typically don't like main characters that don't have agency, and that's not something a writer can fix by just "writing more." 

Readers decide whether to read a story within the first paragraph (sometimes) so if your first 50 chapters have the main character being a slave, and they're not at chapter 51 because you realized agency is important, its not going to get you any readers.

You do have to keep writing, but that means starting over when you realize that a story isn't salvageable.


You have to keep writing. It just has to be a different story with a premise that you figure out is working.

Re: Advice is advice, not a fixed set of rules. Also, big authors aren't out to get you. Shocking, I know.

#52

TheKingofKirby Wrote: But I can give an example of faulty advice that pretty much every pop. author has given and other authors repeat.

Just keep writing and readers will come.

This piece of advice is untrue. There are plenty of stories and authors here with thousands of pages or even millions of words that go unread.
I think it depends on the experience of the person as well. If a writer has the experience of having simply written and readers come, they may not be aware of the elements that make their story work. They might assume that since it was easy for them, it must be easy for everyone.


I've seen people who never wrote more than a few pages and start posting suddenly shoot to the top of the lists; I've seen people who've had past successes post new stories that crash and burn. Of course there's never a guarantee of success, but if you stop, there is a guarantee of failure.

And I would personally argue that it is true. Keep writing, and readers will come. Someone I write with regularly found a truly horrifying example of... I hesitate to even call it writing, but loves it and keeps trying to get others to try it anyway. Will thousands of readers come? Will enough readers come to make you a financial success? Probably not, but someone will.

If the writer is someone writing for fun or for passion, knowing that someone will read your story as long as you keep going might be all they need to hear.
If the writer wants to go commercial, then they're playing by different rules. If the goal isn't 'readers' but 'a huge number of readers', the parameters for success and what story is worth continuing change.

No advice is universally applicable. Which is basically what the OP said in the first place. Take what works for you, and ignore the rest.
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