Re: The Blue Box Is A Trap

#23
People trying to compare this to manga; ur wrong. Manga tends to be very long but most if not all have endings. Not open ended but proper endings apart from the “I’m the strongest now.” Even db, the classic Shounen manga which was focused primarily on strength and desire, ended on the idea of legacy. Any derivatives that continue it are really just milking it for money leaving the art of storytelling aside. Both db, Naruto, and Inuyasha ended but now u have other people (not the original creator) continuing it with some sort of sequel or wtv. Why? Money. I won’t count those because the intention behind them is clear. 

I saw someone say litrpg is like this cuz of influence from manga…um no. It’s from webnovels particularly the ones from China not manga. That’s cuz they have the same system going on, where people pay to read more. Most manga have concrete endings. They may go on for long times, but that’s because they release max one chapter a week with around 12-16 pages. That’s not a lot to cover the story. And actually other manga really just update once a month with 16 pages. Again, not a lot to work it. But that’s cuz manga requires a tonnnn of work. 

Re: The Blue Box Is A Trap

#24

Zogarth Wrote: In the end, why do you think this is even a problem? People clearly like long-form LitRPG or other types of serialization, and it isn't harming anyone. Also, it isn't like find more classical books is hard.


My guess would be he got heartbroken multiple times, enjoying a story, only for it to end without any conclusion. It does suck, even if I understand the realities of writing fiction during your free time. There are still a few webcomics I think about from aaaages ago that ended up dropped, without resolving many interesting questions I stayed up thinking about as a teen.

Though in general, yeah, let people do whatever they want, and just accept the reality of situation. It's rare in any media for popular stuff to just stop being updated, when it's still popular.

Re: The Blue Box Is A Trap

#25
Yes the blue box is a trap, just not for the reasons you explain, and not how I'd even start going into how to explain it.

Stats in LitRPG are often used as a crutch to support a poorly planned story. It doesn't mean it can't be used well, just that a lot of authors mis-use it as a crutch instead of a framework to build upon.

On top of that, the genre itself is kind of trappy by nature of origin - LitRPG is based on RPG games, games that were designed as an abstraction of real life. So you are essentially basing a "realistic" story on top of concepts that are meant to simplify and abstract away real life so it can be managed by simpler rules. So you are building an abstraction of an abstraction, of course it will stand on weak legs, and you have to put in some effort to make it work.

The main way to make it work is by only being part of the genre loosely, and that's generally how the best of the genre are that I've read. You avoid being literal with stats - HP cannot represent the health of a being because that's not a numerical concept. It can, on the other hand, be a sort of barrier or a capacity for regeneration. Mana is easy, but things like numeric Strength fall apart very quickly.

That being said, readers like whatever they like, and if it's number porn they want to read, who am I to stop them?

Re: The Blue Box Is A Trap

#28

kanadaj Wrote: On top of that, the genre itself is kind of trappy by nature of origin - LitRPG is based on RPG games, games that were designed as an abstraction of real life. So you are essentially basing a "realistic" story on top of concepts that are meant to simplify and abstract away real life so it can be managed by simpler rules. So you are building an abstraction of an abstraction, of course it will stand on weak legs, and you have to put in some effort to make it work.

The main way to make it work is by only being part of the genre loosely, and that's generally how the best of the genre are that I've read. You avoid being literal with stats - HP cannot represent the health of a being because that's not a numerical concept. It can, on the other hand, be a sort of barrier or a capacity for regeneration. Mana is easy, but things like numeric Strength fall apart very quickly.
This is how a normal human views it, but normal humans generally don't read litrpgs  peogentleman

Re: The Blue Box Is A Trap

#29

TheFirstDefier Wrote:

https%3A%2F%2Fi.ibb.co%2FzHyBJQ9%2Fgrrrr.png

Thank you for your input, random backseat writer-guy.


peogiggle

More on-topic: I agree that blue boxes can be a trap, but like any other narrative tool, they can be used well. There's a certain freshness to the genre, and a lot of ideas haven't been explored. I don't think we've seen everything the blue boxes have to offer just yet. 

Re: The Blue Box Is A Trap

#30

HereBeTreasure Wrote: This is how a normal human views it, but normal humans generally don't read litrpgs
True, but I agree with the admin as well. I think the main issue I see, is that a lot forget that it is a story as well. The stat boxes as well detracts from the story as well, as a result, I end up just dropping them. I came to read, not look at pictures. It would be something different if the pictures were portraits, then okay, I can live with that. Always nice to see art, but when they use those boxes, it is a lot of pointless information. I suppose that is probably the point of the genre, but hey, I tried to give them a fair chance. More often than not, the story itself feels lifeless, I’d be better off watching paint dry in such a case.

I am pretty sure there are good ones out there, but at this point, I really do not care to be trying the genre anymore. So, whoever actually has a good one, I apologize for giving up. 😐

Re: The Blue Box Is A Trap

#31

minime Wrote: People trying to compare this to manga; ur wrong. Manga tends to be very long but most if not all have endings. Not open ended but proper endings apart from the “I’m the strongest now.” Even db, the classic Shounen manga which was focused primarily on strength and desire, ended on the idea of legacy. Any derivatives that continue it are really just milking it for money leaving the art of storytelling aside. Both db, Naruto, and Inuyasha ended but now u have other people (not the original creator) continuing it with some sort of sequel or wtv. Why? Money. I won’t count those because the intention behind them is clear. 

I saw someone say litrpg is like this cuz of influence from manga…um no. It’s from webnovels particularly the ones from China not manga. That’s cuz they have the same system going on, where people pay to read more. Most manga have concrete endings. They may go on for long times, but that’s because they release max one chapter a week with around 12-16 pages. That’s not a lot to cover the story. And actually other manga really just update once a month with 16 pages. Again, not a lot to work it. But that’s cuz manga requires a tonnnn of work.
At this point, I should probably point out to you that there's manga series out there that's been ongoing for 53 years and *still* ongoing to this day.

Re: The Blue Box Is A Trap

#33
I don't normally reply to threads like this, but my story was mentioned specifically and I'm very tired, thus have impaired judgement. I'm going to follow Zogarth's lead and respond to the topic using only my own work as context rather than speak for any other writers.

I think that character development outside of 'numbers go up' go up is an important part of any fictional work, litRPG, gamelit, progression fantasy or whatever. I'm very accustomed to criticism of my work, and even when I don't agree with it, I can see where the person is coming from. My writing is far from perfect, and even with the stuff I'm happy with, it's perfectly okay for people to not like my prose style or humour or Australian spelling or creative choices. Taste is subjective.

When someone tells me that I don't have character development, though, that irks me. A lot of that criticism I was just talking about came from people who disliked aspects of character development specifically. My protagonist does grow and change and regress and change again. Is emotional development not enough? Personality development not enough? Evolution of core principles not enough? What kind of character development are you looking for? Does it not count unless he turns into a mango and the setting becomes heavily fruit-platter based? I don't know if the person making this claim about my story has read it or not, but if they have, they may need to check it again. If they don't, though, I'll probably be fine.

As for the idea of some infinite, open-ended progression, I've always been working towards an end game. I've said it in comments, I've said on discord, I've said in my reddit AMA. Just because I haven't written it yet, that doesn't mean I won't. It means I'm not a time wizard.

Re: The Blue Box Is A Trap

#34

Edge Wrote:
Avitue Wrote: At this point, I should probably point out to you that there's manga series out there that's been ongoing for 53 years and *still* ongoing to this day.
I think it is safe to say, the original base for that one is probably all dead if not most.
There's also *many* series that have lasted two decades or more and still ongoing.


Big names include One Piece. ;)

Re: The Blue Box Is A Trap

#36

Shirtaloon Wrote: When someone tells me that I don't have character development, though, that irks me. A lot of that criticism I was just talking about came from people who disliked aspects of character development specifically. My protagonist does grow and change and regress and change again.


I would like to clarify, because honestly your novel is one the few that I really enjoy. I specifically used your novel as an example of books that have strength as a primary motivating factor, everything else I actually enjoy about it. I think it's funny, has fantastic prose, and your characters do change throughout it.

In fact, to clarify about every novel I've talked about in this thread, I enjoy them. I read them because I enjoy them and I wrote this thread because I enjoy them. I think the authors of each one of these books are extremely talented. I just think it's a travesty when good writers, that write interesting books make them too long and eventually just stop writing, and the series is never finished, or they write something because its a succesfull trope. And to be fair, I don't begrudge the people who are doing this as a job, if this is what pays your rent and lets your children go to college, then I completely understand.

This account is 6 years old, and the time I've actually been reading on royalroad is probably a fair but longer than that, and I have seen an insane amount of System Apocalypses, Full Dive VRMMOs, Xianxia cultivation novels and Isekai LitRPG's, and less than 1% of those are actually finished, and those that do finish, seem to be those that break the mold and do something non common with their systems or tropes.



Re: The Blue Box Is A Trap

#37

Avitue Wrote:
minime Wrote: People trying to compare this to manga; ur wrong. Manga tends to be very long but most if not all have endings. Not open ended but proper endings apart from the “I’m the strongest now.” Even db, the classic Shounen manga which was focused primarily on strength and desire, ended on the idea of legacy. Any derivatives that continue it are really just milking it for money leaving the art of storytelling aside. Both db, Naruto, and Inuyasha ended but now u have other people (not the original creator) continuing it with some sort of sequel or wtv. Why? Money. I won’t count those because the intention behind them is clear. 

I saw someone say litrpg is like this cuz of influence from manga…um no. It’s from webnovels particularly the ones from China not manga. That’s cuz they have the same system going on, where people pay to read more. Most manga have concrete endings. They may go on for long times, but that’s because they release max one chapter a week with around 12-16 pages. That’s not a lot to cover the story. And actually other manga really just update once a month with 16 pages. Again, not a lot to work it. But that’s cuz manga requires a tonnnn of work.
At this point, I should probably point out to you that there's manga series out there that's been ongoing for 53 years and *still* ongoing to this day.
Ok? The manga in that category tends to be mainly gag, aimed towards children, and meant to be like tom and jerry. But those are not meant to be structured like a story and are SUPPOSED to be long-running things people read and grow up with. Now manga that are supposed to be like stories, but are still long-running, is simply due to the fact that manga at best publishes once a week with 16 pages. Not to mention hiatuses and breaks. So they end up naturally being long. Not because they are going on and on without a goal. That's not true. And most do not have end goals like "I'm gonna be the strongest". MOST manga do have concrete endings. Again, I fully expect there o be outliers because manga is so vast but I already mentioned those.


Avitue Wrote:
Edge Wrote:
Avitue Wrote: At this point, I should probably point out to you that there's manga series out there that's been ongoing for 53 years and *still* ongoing to this day.
I think it is safe to say, the original base for that one is probably all dead if not most.
There's also *many* series that have lasted two decades or more and still ongoing.


Big names include One Piece. ;)
and I knew you were going to say that. OP has a goal and an ending. Just because it's decades-long doesn't mean it's dragging anything out. It's long due to the structure of mangas. In a year, even with those updating once a week, typically only 30 chapters are produced. (Because breaks.) That's seriously nothing. That's why they go on for so long. Same with Kingdom, another big name. It has a ton of chapters and consistent weekly uploads. But I would never say it's going on and on. It has a clear ending and development. Also FAR MORE manga DO NOT make it to last years and years. They have endings. Concrete endings, not just fizzling out. So that's why I said in my earlier post that this long-running kinda thing with endless strength does not primarily come from manga. it comes from Chinese webnovels. And maybe webtoons. But that's a big maybe since webtoons are relatively very recent. 



Edge Wrote:
Avitue Wrote: There's also *many* series that have lasted two decades or more and still ongoing.


Big names include One Piece. ;)
Yeah heh. I used to like One Piece, but it just kept dragging on, as a result I just dropped it. I am not following a work to my grave, got better things to do heh.
missing out man. Your choice but there is nothing needless in OP. But ofc everyone has their own likes and dislikes. 

Re: The Blue Box Is A Trap

#38

minime Wrote: missing out man. Your choice but there is nothing needless in OP. But ofc everyone has their own likes and dislikes.
On the contrary, I am not missing out on anything. I wouldn’t have dropped it if I felt I was gonna be losing out on an experience, I just find it to be one of the worst shows I have watched. Which, I do regret the time I put into it. Though, that happened, mistakes are made.

Re: The Blue Box Is A Trap

#39

D-S-Nate Wrote: For me, character development and growth is what I find more important in a story so for the most part, I can't relate to it. It's a shame most stories are not complete though.


ImEthan Wrote: The extreme of this is Randidly Ghosthound, which has over a 1700 chapters and the main character still can't even comprehend the power level of the Big Bad, likewise, Randidly's only change as an individual occurred in the first 100 chapters, as he learned his responsibilities and becomes more confident with his new power. It's no wonder all of the books on RoyalRoad fizzle out, who can stay in love with the same character for 1700 chapters?

There are a significant amount of readers here who don't want/don't care about character growth. They just want a fun popcorn story to binge on. 

It really do be that simple sometimes  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re: The Blue Box Is A Trap

#40

Edge Wrote:
minime Wrote: missing out man. Your choice but there is nothing needless in OP. But ofc everyone has their own likes and dislikes.
On the contrary, I am not missing out on anything. I wouldn’t have dropped it if I felt I was gonna be losing out on an experience, I just find it to be one of the worst shows I have watched. Which, I do regret the time I put into it. Though, that happened, mistakes are made.
ok :) But I would just say that manga is far better in my opinion because well it's the original thing and it has beautiful art as well as quick pacing. I also got very tired of the anime dragging things out in the dress rosa arc so I switched to the manga, which was great. I didn't read the manga before that cuz I didn't really read manga at that time. Again, I'm just saying this because that was my personal experience, but I get that it wasn't for you.