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Re: What to offer here vs patreon?

#42
By the way, Yvern, thanks for the fake review on my story immediately after our discussion here. I guess if you can't come up with an appropriate response, you'd rather sabotage an author.

You did pretty good at masking it, by copying bits and pieces from other reviews and giving me a 4 rather than 1, but you made enough mistakes that it's clear you didn't actually read the story.

EDIT: Oh, hey, look, you did it to Zogarth's story too! You're not very good at being sneaky, are you?
EDIT 2: And, hey, look at that! A positive review for JeneClyde. What a shock! I'm surprised you were able to fake three reviews in such a short time, much less "read" all three stories.

Re: What to offer here vs patreon?

#43

IvyVeritas Wrote: By the way, Yvern, thanks for the fake review on my story immediately after our discussion here. I guess if you can't come up with an appropriate response, you'd rather sabotage an author.

You did pretty good at masking it, by copying bits and pieces from other reviews and giving me a 4 rather than 1, but you made enough mistakes that it's clear you didn't actually read the story.

EDIT: Oh, hey, look, you did it to Zogarth's story too! You're not very good at being sneaky, are you?


Nope I actually read through your first book because I was curious to see what you both had to offer, and I actually liked your story, Zogarth on the other hand I struggle bussed through because his earlier work isn't very strong. But I see where your mind is at. You don't look under the bed unless you've been there before. 

I also noticed your book was on amazon as a paperback, and I did not leave a review there, strange, almost like I'm not trying to sabotage your work and I was actually trying to give you a fair shake but since you seem to have a problem with that. I will remove my reveiw and boycott your work if that's what you really want. 

Re: What to offer here vs patreon?

#44

Yvern Wrote: Nope I actually read through your first book because I was curious to see what you both had to offer, and I actually liked your story, Zogarth on the other hand I struggle bussed through because his earlier work isn't very strong. But I see where your mind is at. You don't look under the bed unless you've been there before.



And yet, you've only reviewed three authors total, all of whom posted in this thread, and all three reviews were posted within the space of an hour and thirty-five minutes.

Quickly, you have five minutes: Tell me the main theme of Book 1. If you've read the book, you should be able to answer this without looking it up.

Re: What to offer here vs patreon?

#46

Brendoleenee Wrote: Who hurt you?



Do you believe fake reviews should be allowed due to a disagreement in the forums? I would never attempt to sabotage your story if you were posting one here, no matter how much we disagreed.

In fact, I almost never post reviews at all, because I never want to say anything bad about another author's story that they've put so much effort into.

Re: What to offer here vs patreon?

#48

IvyVeritas Wrote:
Yvern Wrote: Nope I actually read through your first book because I was curious to see what you both had to offer, and I actually liked your story, Zogarth on the other hand I struggle bussed through because his earlier work isn't very strong. But I see where your mind is at. You don't look under the bed unless you've been there before.



And yet, you've only reviewed three authors total, all of whom posted in this thread, and all three reviews were posted within the space of an hour and thirty-five minutes.

Quickly, you have five minutes: Tell me the main theme of Book 1. If you've read the book, you should be able to answer this without looking it up.


Ahem

Joined: 7/8/2021, 2:31:41 PM


That's when I posted my first review which was for Affairs of Demons and Men before I even posted in this thread, I just updated the review because a new chapter came out today and I read it shortly after finishing your book. 

And no I will not because, one I do not owe you anything, I gave you a positive review got told I'm sabotaging your work for a positive review, enjoyed your book enough to look it up on amazon to support the author and I get accused of sabotage, for a positive reveiw. What do I gain from sabotaging you? What could I possibly gain from sabotaging. 


I'm going to go ahead and pull my review from your page, and be done with this, because this is high school pettiness is something I refuse to escribe to. 

Re: What to offer here vs patreon?

#49

Brendoleenee Wrote: I read the review, there wasn't anything wrong that I saw with it. Also, since when is a 4 star review sabotage? That seems like a bit of an overreaction to me because generally a 4 star review signals something that is well above average and exceptional.



Yep. Even 3 stars aren't really "sabotage". He (or she?) didn't even do an advanced review and wrote an actual reason for his basic rating, which not many people do. 4 is, by far, pretty good. 3 is also decent. I've also read Primal Hunter for a bit and the earlier chapters seemed a bit shaky. I can't really say anything for Eighth Warden, as I haven't read it, but come on, a single 3 Star on Primal Hunter? That's not even going to matter. A 4 star on Eighth Warden, while it may drag the score down by a .01 - .09 value or something of the sort, gives it a bit more credibility imo. Something that's between 4 and 5 (meaning the ones with decimal values) are more readable than ones that have straight 5s. That just looks a bit fake to me.

And if he wanted to sabotage your work, he could have just left an anonymous one star, or worse yet, a 0.5 star. I'm no stranger to them and I assume that you aren't as well, and quite frankly, that is the 'best' way to sabotage an author on the troll's part.

Re: What to offer here vs patreon?

#51

JeneClyde Wrote:
Zogarth Wrote:
JeneClyde Wrote:
Mad Wrote:
JeneClyde Wrote: Being a writer is extremely expensive and some people are low income. There are very rarely any free resources out there for writers that are actually free.

You must live in a different universe than I do, because (granted, other than buying a computer and paying for internet every month so I can google things) I have never paid a single red cent for anything I write on/with. Hell, you can even write things here if you can't find anything else free.

Although I might be able to help you out! 1. Campfire and World Anvil are (basically) the same thing, so you can ditch one of those and save money (or get rid of both and find a free word processor, there are dozens of them out there but Google Docs is the best). 2. Everything in Milanote can be done with a basic spreadsheet, it just won't be as pretty, and Google Sheets is free. 3. Spotify is a music app, so I don't know why you're saying it's a resource for writers, but allow me to introduce you to this website known as "youtube", where you can listen to music for free (excepting a 5 second ad every three songs or so).



I am only going to address one of these, since you both seem to have similar arguments. I actually don't use either Campfire or World Anvil. I only use Milanote because it works for me. Recognize that not every app is not necessary, just because you don't deem it necessary. People have different needs and Milanote is actually the first thing that I have used that actually helps me outline better than sheets do. Having a visual board is extremely useful to skim information. So I deemed it necessary. Sure Youtube is free, but making individual playlist for certain scenes, discovering music, and being able to organize music is something Youtube doesn't provide. I also use Inkarnate, which is a map maker. Which also requires money, I could use the free version, but the free version is limited on what you can and cannot do. Those three, Milanote, Spotify, and Inkaranate are my resources, as a writer, they are tools. And are valid tools. And should be accepted as valid tools.

It's only this industry that people think that writers shouldn't ask for money until they built an audience. But any other entertainment job, imagine if we told a commission artist that they need to give out free commissions to build an audience before they made any returns off of it. I think that standard needs to change. We shouldn't be expecting writers to do the same.

It also sounds like travel expenses are not being put into place, and I am not talking outside of state or around the world, I am talking locally in your hometown. The price of gas for research, I have went to prisons, and I have went and met up with people to interview them at different locations in my hometown. That also cost money. You're right some writing is free. You can totally sit down and look things up online, which I do. But a lot of my research is supplemented with experience as well. 

And even then, that's not entirely free either. You have to pay money for the Internet at least in the U.S. Writing is not free. Minimally you'll be paying for the internet and electricity. Any program you want to use or tool you want to use for accessibility or world building reasons, is not free. And you will have to pay for them. And if you want to go the extra mile, interviewing people, actually getting a hands on experience, requires money as well. The idea that writing is free and requires no work on part of the writer is not entirely true.

And you can make money, just write the book and put it on Amazon. Do that and you will be paid if enough people buy it. Don't you think other artists have to make their art first before monetizing it? With your mindset, you seem far more suited to a more regular publishing kind of deal. So go for that. This thread is talking about serialized fiction.

If you need money, approach a publisher and have them pay for things. That's the traditional way... though to be fair, even they expect a working manuscript first. I guess what I am trying to say is, that if you can't afford to self-fund writing a book you shouldn't be writing a book. The world doesn't owe you the possibility of writing a book. If you can't write a book within your budget, then don't. 

Honestly, what do you expect people to pay you for before you have a working project? of course, authors should be able to earn money from writing, I am enjoying quite a nice living from it myself currently, but being paid for your work doesn't mean that someone else should pay for you to write it. To get to that stage you have to first prove you're worth paying.



First off, any commission artist will tell you that they would never sell their art work for free. I'd like you to go a commission artist right now and ask them to draw them a picture for free. When this is literally something many commissioned based artist have complained about before in the past. About people expecting free work from them. Like a writer, art takes time, you buy your own materials and your own tools. You seem to think that Patreon is Only for monetization, when it can be used a tip jar. The idea is the Patreon can be utilized as a way to pay towards the subscriptions that a writer utilizes, and pays for the expenses of travel that as writer has to do in order to travel to location to location even in their own hometown. Patreon is not, I am trying to make a living. My earlier comment about how do they expect me to pay my bills, is not with the Patreon money. Patreon supplements the subscriptions. So I have the money I have for the bills I need. Just like for a commission artist they use their patreon and commission money to pay for their tools, like paint, and paint brushes, material, etc.


I come from an artist background and made rent from commissions for a while. You're missing the point people are trying to make here. 

Yes, commission artists require pay. Just like commissioned writers require pay. But actually getting to the point where one can live off commissions is hard work that take most artists years of building skills and a portfolio. Commissions is the artist equivalent of a writers patreon account. There are a lot of artists who want to make a living and relatively few artists who can make that a reality. Most artists will upload their art for free on social media accounts for years, building audiences that way. Even skilled artists need to invest time and effort into attracting future buyers.

Most artists I know got stable jobs in the industry anyway, they don't work on commission, because that's a very unreliable model and you never really know if next month will be as good as this one, y'know? That's why commission artists will have to do a lot of technically unpaid work to make sure they attract buyers who will pay them in the future. This doesn't mean they draw what OTHER people want them to draw, they donät just hand out free art they made for other people, but they have to work on their own projects and they have to share it with an audience, or they will become invisible.

Re: What to offer here vs patreon?

#52

IvyVeritas Wrote:
Yvern Wrote: That's when I posted my first review which was for Affairs of Demons and Men before I even posted in this thread, I just updated the review because a new chapter came out today



If you reviewed that story previously and only updated it today, then I truly apologize for including it in my post above.



I'm putting this out there because I really don't want bad blood over a disagreement over monetization. Just because we disagree with some point of views doesn't mean I'm going to hate your work. The best understanding comes through disagreements and coming to understanding one another's points of view. If you hate chocolate and I love chocolate that doesn't mean I'm going to hate you or any of the content you may produce. I find enjoyment in debates such as this because I enjoy seeing the other side of things knowledge is by far more valuable then echoing back the same thing, there's no progress nor understanding then. 

I am not going to judge your writing based on if we agree or not because at the end of the day that doesn't matter. I hate cancel culture. 

Besides we did agree on something I'm a commission artist so my point of view is skewed on that, and so you are correct I do lack the experience as a serial web writer. And I do agree paywalling content isn't the right way to go, I don't think it's a bad thing to set up and have a patreon organized on the back burner for the future. (I just never got to answer that point because well...you know earlier.)

Re: What to offer here vs patreon?

#53

Haust Wrote: I come from an artist background and made rent from commissions for a while. You're off the mark here. 

Yes, commission artists require pay. Just like commissioned writers require pay. But actually getting to the point where one can live off commissions is hard work that take most artists years of building skills and a portfolio. Commissions is the artist equivalent of a writers patreon account. There are a lot of artists who want to make a living and relatively few artists who can make that a reality. Most artists will upload their art for free on social media accounts for years, building audiences that way. Even skilled artists need to invest time and effort into attracting future buyers.



I feel like everyone is misunderstanding my argument here. When I originally brought this up,  I am not talking about Making a Living off of Patron. What I was trying to describe and I will break this down is;

-Commission Artist Gets Paid for Work
-Uses Commission Money to pay for Materials  i.e. Photoshops or Pencils

I wasn't trying to say I wanted to make money off Patreon. I am trying to say:

-Spotify cost 10 dollars
-Using Donations to Supplemental the Cost

So I can continue using my checks for the things I need and to pay the things that I need to do so. And I think using Patron in that way early on is all right to use it for that. It's all I have been trying to explain this entire time. But everyone consistently thinks of Big Monetization and not Little Monetization. Baby Money to help support the cost of some materials. 

I just want to pay for my Metaphorical Pencils. I am not saying Patron for rent.

I am saying Using my Checks for Rent, and being able to use Tips to pay for the Subscriptions so I can continue to pay rent with my checks. 

Edit: When I said how do people expect me to pay my bills, I didn't meant with Patron, I meant with my checks. The issue is disability in America is meant to hurt the disabled person. We don't make enough money and subscriptions eat at the leftover checks I have. I want to be able to keep my checks for what I need and emergencies and ask for some help along the way to pay for Spotify. If I am constantly eating the cost of 10 dollars of Spotify, then my ability to make my living on my checks is impossible.

Re: What to offer here vs patreon?

#54

JeneClyde Wrote:
Haust Wrote: I come from an artist background and made rent from commissions for a while. You're off the mark here. 

Yes, commission artists require pay. Just like commissioned writers require pay. But actually getting to the point where one can live off commissions is hard work that take most artists years of building skills and a portfolio. Commissions is the artist equivalent of a writers patreon account. There are a lot of artists who want to make a living and relatively few artists who can make that a reality. Most artists will upload their art for free on social media accounts for years, building audiences that way. Even skilled artists need to invest time and effort into attracting future buyers.



I feel like everyone is misunderstanding my argument here. When I originally brought this up,  I am not talking about Making a Living off of Patron. What I was trying to describe and I will break this down is;

-Commission Artist Gets Paid for Work
-Uses Commission Money to pay for Materials  i.e. Photoshops or Pencils

I wasn't trying to say I wanted to make money off Patreon. I am trying to say:

-Spotify cost 10 dollars
-Using Donations to Supplemental the Cost

So I can continue using my checks for the things I need and to pay the things that I need to do so. And I think using Patron in that way early on is all right to use it for that. It's all I have been trying to explain this entire time. But everyone consistently thinks of Big Monetization and not Little Monetization. Baby Money to help support the cost of some materials. 

I just want to pay for my Metaphorical Pencils. I am not saying Patron for rent.

I am saying Using my Checks for Rent, and being able to use Tips to pay for the Subscriptions so I can continue to pay rent with my checks.



Then set up a Patreon account. You might get lucky enough to get a few paying readers. If not, no skin off your nose. 

That said, I suspect this is the wrong platform for you. Most people here who make money do so through long serials and the audience willing to pay for writing come expecting that model. Paid authors on RR get paid by making the readers addicted to their stuff first and only then, when the reader run out of their fix because they've read all the free chapters, the author dangles the 20 advance chapters as bait in front of their noses. It's not the only model for paid writing, but it works when it works. 

I personally wouldn't use RR as a platform for getting paid for short stories. I think it'd be hard to get people to even read them for free because people come here for serial fiction and specifically for that. You might have an easier time getting your pencil money if you write with publishers in mind. 

Re: What to offer here vs patreon?

#55

JeneClyde Wrote: Edit: When I said how do people expect me to pay my bills, I didn't meant with Patron, I meant with my checks. The issue is disability in America is meant to hurt the disabled person. We don't make enough money and subscriptions eat at the leftover checks I have. I want to be able to keep my checks for what I need and emergencies and ask for some help along the way to pay for Spotify. If I am constantly eating the cost of 10 dollars of Spotify, then my ability to make my living on my checks is impossible.

 Very true, but you still have to do stuff that works if you want people to pay you. I empathize with the disability check problem as I'm not exactly working full time myself. But there might be other models that works better for you and your work than Patreon. It's not impossible (or even necessarily hard if you have luck with opportunities, social skills and the right methods) to earn 'pencil money' through the arts. However, not every method will work. You'll need something that works and finding those means to try a bunch of stuff, expect much of it to fail completely, and stick with the 20% that actually earned you money. 


My advice would be give patreon a shot but don't limit yourself to that model. Personally I suspect it won't work (at least not if RR is your main source of readers) but hey you won't know until you try. 

Re: What to offer here vs patreon?

#57

Brendoleenee Wrote:
Haust Wrote: That said, I suspect this is the wrong platform for you. Most people here who make money do so through long serials and the audience willing to pay for writing come expecting that model. Paid authors on RR get paid by making the readers addicted to their stuff first and only then, when the reader run out of their fix because they've read all the free chapters, the author dangles the 20 advance chapters as bait in front of their noses. It's not the only model for paid writing, but it works when it works.

He is writing serial fiction though. I checked out his fiction Affairs of Demons and Men, and it is absolutely a serial fiction.

Ah, sorry. I thought I was talking to the OP. Ignore what I said then, it's just my take on short fiction and patreon. 

Re: What to offer here vs patreon?

#58

Haust Wrote:
Brendoleenee Wrote:
Haust Wrote: That said, I suspect this is the wrong platform for you. Most people here who make money do so through long serials and the audience willing to pay for writing come expecting that model. Paid authors on RR get paid by making the readers addicted to their stuff first and only then, when the reader run out of their fix because they've read all the free chapters, the author dangles the 20 advance chapters as bait in front of their noses. It's not the only model for paid writing, but it works when it works.

He is writing serial fiction though. I checked out his fiction Affairs of Demons and Men, and it is absolutely a serial fiction.

Ah, sorry. I thought I was talking to the OP. Ignore what I said then, it's just my take on short fiction and patreon.

Honestly, I did that earlier too. 

Re: What to offer here vs patreon?

#59

Haust Wrote: Ah, sorry. I thought I was talking to the OP. Ignore what I said then, it's just my take on short fiction and patreon.



You're all right. When I originally came into this thread, it was simply to open up a discussion about the reasons why some people might opt into Patron. I write web serials, it works for me in a way traditional publishing doesn't. I am following the road paved by Worm in the Parahuman Series: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worm_(web_serial)

It was a serialized web novel completely run on donations. All of my chapters will always be available and any early access features is literally to feed the readers their addiction a day early if they really want it. 

All of my work will be run by donation because I am not looking to make Money I am just trying to find a way to make it work. And take some financial stress off of myself. 

Re: What to offer here vs patreon?

#60

JeneClyde Wrote: And I think using Patron in that way early on is all right to use it for that. It's all I have been trying to explain this entire time. But everyone consistently thinks of Big Monetization and not Little Monetization. Baby Money to help support the cost of some materials.



It's certainly okay to try, but keep in mind the conversion rates I posted earlier. A good result is getting a 1% conversion rate in the first three months (i.e., 100 followers would result in a single patron). You can get a higher conversion rate than that (I'm at about 4% right now), but it takes longer.

So the question is, do you want to open a Patreon now and risk not getting any patrons right away? It's a matter of potential revenue (money from actual patrons) vs. marketing (the risk of what a low patron count will look like to any other potential patrons who visit the page).

I wonder if PayPal would be a better starting point, since it doesn't carry the same marketing risk. I don't have any numbers for PayPal, though. Has anyone done an analysis of PayPal income for web serials?

Note that once you start bringing in income, you have to treat it as a business and track your income and expenses, and report them on your tax forms. (Unless it's your only income and you're under the limit for filing taxes.) So, make sure it's worth it. It's not difficult--maybe an extra hour to spend on your tax forms, if you keep all your receipts and income statements together--but it's just something to be aware of.
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