Re: I hate the 'everyone just gets along in the end' cliche

#22

I Wrote:
theamir Wrote: There's a term for a mindset like this and it begins with "i" and ends with "l".

One of the reasons I don't post my work here; there's a lot of young boys and men who have a massive grudge and tons of misconceptions about women, and will immediately downvote female-led work.

Well, my work has a female lead, and it's doing, well, kinda fine???

Taking a look at your work, that's because it's a very young, vulnerable female protagonist in a litRPG/game/progression setting.

AKA the only type of female-led novel this site is cool with (especially if she's a lesbian).

My female protagonist was 27, average-looking, not vulnerable, and didn't cater to male power fantasy. Mind you, my books were traditionally published at one point (publisher closed doors several years ago and I got my rights back, decided to just toss them around the web for free since no publisher will pick up a work already published, and I was working on a new project at the time) and of much higher quality than the average RR story. That's not a brag; that's the result of professional editing and multiple revisions.

However, the most comments I received on this site were about my female POV being a "b*tch", "old" and "ugly", along with a hefty dose of .5 ratings because of it. She was also a black woman, so that netted me some not-so-kind comments about that as well.

There was a thread a few weeks/months back asking about why more female and diverse authors aren't hanging around here now that Wattpad is going down the crapper. I checked myself a few months ago, too, to see if the community was less young white cis male and very rightwing. But it hasn't changed, and so I'll post my re-boot of my original work elsewhere.

The hostile environment toward anything not catering directly to male power fantasy is why there's a lack of female and diverse authors and more realistic female and diverse leads on this site.

Anyway, those are my own experiences on that particular subject. YMMV. In fact, I sincerely HOPE your YMMV, because some of us haven't had very good experiences here. 

Re: I hate the 'everyone just gets along in the end' cliche

#23

splattenburgers Wrote: Case in point: The unpopular kid who gets the girl in the end instead of the popular (and often more attractive) kid, who more often than not is depicted as a bully. 

This literally never happens in real life.

Ever.

Ever.

It commonly does, if the popular kid is an arsehole and the unpopular one is a decent person. But it depends on the age of the characters. If they're, say, 13-16, and still experimenting with romance and their related social factors, then yeah, it's rare. It's not rare at all for older teens and adults. (This only applies if the unpopular kid is a decent person willing to maintain some decent behavioural standards, though -- some people are unpopular because they're dicks to everyone, and they're unlikely to do well in romance.)

Re: I hate the 'everyone just gets along in the end' cliche

#24

theamir Wrote: There was a thread a few weeks/months back asking about why more female and diverse authors aren't hanging around here now that Wattpad is going down the crapper. I checked myself a few months ago, too, to see if the community was less young white cis male and very rightwing. But it hasn't changed, and so I'll post my re-boot of my original work elsewhere.

The hostile environment toward anything not catering directly to male power fantasy is why there's a lack of female and diverse authors

Judging from the forums, up to 50% of posters are female. No less than 30%. There's even that "Guys vs Girls" counting thread, and often girls are winning the spamcount. Not bad at all for a site built around a gaming story. And idk how more diverse you could get: when people introduce themselves, and in the "what country are you from?" threads, there's dozens of different countries, and more of less every continent. Some stories aren't even posted in english. Also recently a large surge of LGBT stories started appearing, too, if that's what you meant. 

And about the politics thing: I couldn't disagree more. I don't get the impression that the site is "rightwing" at all. Make a poll or something, and I assure you, most people will say they lean more "liberal" here. Especially the authors, it's really not hard to sense from reading the stories. (I'm quoting the terms, because they're barely applicable outside the USA).

I'm sorry about the mean comments you got, but that's no reason to insult an entire site and it's userbase 

Re: I hate the 'everyone just gets along in the end' cliche

#26

Ararara Wrote: There's even that "Guys vs Girls" counting thread, and often girls are winning the spamcount. Not bad at all for a site built around a gaming story.


Oh, you got that so wrong. It's +2 for guys and -2 for girls, so if the girls were winning, the number would be below 0. But the last I checked, it was over 1000, so girls are definitely not winning in that thread...

Re: I hate the 'everyone just gets along in the end' cliche

#27

I Wrote:
Ararara Wrote: There's even that "Guys vs Girls" counting thread, and often girls are winning the spamcount. Not bad at all for a site built around a gaming story.


Oh, you got that so wrong. It's +2 for guys and -2 for girls, so if the girls were winning, the number would be below 0. But the last I checked, it was over 1000, so girls are definitely not winning in that thread...

I haven't played that game for a while, but was definitely more guys when I did. It seems there are some girls who commented a lot more than anyone else in there, though, who helped keep the score somewhat even. 


Dunno about now tho. 

Re: I hate the 'everyone just gets along in the end' cliche

#28

I Wrote:
Ararara Wrote: There's even that "Guys vs Girls" counting thread, and often girls are winning the spamcount. Not bad at all for a site built around a gaming story.


Oh, you got that so wrong. It's +2 for guys and -2 for girls, so if the girls were winning, the number would be below 0. But the last I checked, it was over 1000, so girls are definitely not winning in that thread...

It used to be negative alot, I didn't check it right before posting this. The count is pretty volatile :)

Re: I hate the 'everyone just gets along in the end' cliche

#29

Ararara Wrote:
I Wrote:
Ararara Wrote: There's even that "Guys vs Girls" counting thread, and often girls are winning the spamcount. Not bad at all for a site built around a gaming story.


Oh, you got that so wrong. It's +2 for guys and -2 for girls, so if the girls were winning, the number would be below 0. But the last I checked, it was over 1000, so girls are definitely not winning in that thread...

It used to be negative alot, I didn't check it right before posting this. The count is pretty volatile

FancyDrakan

Just to be cleared... most of the negatives(including me) are actually boys(I guess).... it had become a war of record chasing.

Re: I hate the 'everyone just gets along in the end' cliche

#30

I Wrote:
theamir Wrote: There's a term for a mindset like this and it begins with "i" and ends with "l".

One of the reasons I don't post my work here; there's a lot of young boys and men who have a massive grudge and tons of misconceptions about women, and will immediately downvote female-led work.

Well, my work has a female lead, and it's doing, well, kinda fine???

I think this is a misconception as well. So far, I believe almost everyone that have seen my work takes my lead quite positively. Female led as well. There are really only a few that doesn’t like my works, which is fine, people have their own preferences. If they don’t give a reason, I don’t really care. If they give one, then I’ll give it a look. If it is simply there to attack or shows the reader doesn’t understand, I tend to ignore it. In most cases, there really isn’t anything one can do, it comes down to the base. I say, write for your base, but if you draw in those from outside as well, then that is a bonus. 

Re: I hate the 'everyone just gets along in the end' cliche

#31

Edge Wrote:
I Wrote:
theamir Wrote: There's a term for a mindset like this and it begins with "i" and ends with "l".

One of the reasons I don't post my work here; there's a lot of young boys and men who have a massive grudge and tons of misconceptions about women, and will immediately downvote female-led work.

Well, my work has a female lead, and it's doing, well, kinda fine???

I think this is a misconception as well. So far, I believe almost everyone that have seen my work takes my lead quite positively. Female led as well. There are really only a few that doesn’t like my works, which is fine, people have their own preferences. If they don’t give a reason, I don’t really care. If they give one, then I’ll give it a look. If it is simply there to attack or shows the reader doesn’t understand, I tend to ignore it. In most cases, there really isn’t anything one can do, it comes down to the base. I say, write for your base, but if you draw in those from outside as well, then that is a bonus.



Is your lead:
1) Young (under 30)?
2) Purposely written to be attractive (especially to the male gaze/audience here)?
3) LitRPG/progression/harem?
4) A lesbian?
5) In need of being rescued by a male supporting character/supporting POV?

If you answer "yes" to more than 2 of those--congrats! You're writing for the male gaze and not a general audience, let alone a diverse audience. Now, there's nothing inherently wrong with that--you can cater to whatever audience you wish--but realize that someone writing a female POV that ISN'T intended solely for the male gaze here is going to get a lot more BS from the community than someone who -is- writing for the male gaze.

And that's why there aren't more diverse stories and authors here.

Also: to the poster saying this is a left-leaning site with a diverse and female-heavy audience/authorship? L O L not even close. And that's fine, but I'd -never- recommend this site to any serious writer coming from a POC background, who isn't writing for a white young cis male audience with rightwing leanings, or who is a serious LGBT author (aka not writing harem, lesbian, or gender bender stuff to cater to the male audience who--for some odd reason--claims they can't read a female POV if there's any love arc or plot that doesn't revolve around fulfilling a male fantasy wish-list).

The OPs original remarks, especially those pertaining to female characters, are absolutely the same sort of remarks I've seen by those with the ideology I mentioned previously.  If nothing else, it reiterates my misgivings about ever posting any of my work here again, and if it were not for trying to stay in touch with a few folks here and there via the PM system, I'd likely never log in at all.

Re: I hate the 'everyone just gets along in the end' cliche

#32

theamir Wrote: Is your lead:
1) Young (under 30)?
2) Purposely written to be attractive (especially to the male gaze/audience here)?
3) LitRPG/progression/harem?
4) A lesbian?
5) In need of being rescued by a male supporting character/supporting POV?

If you answer "yes" to more than 2 of those--congrats! You're writing for the male gaze and not a general audience, let alone a diverse audience. Now, there's nothing inherently wrong with that--you can cater to whatever audience you wish--but realize that someone writing a female POV that ISN'T intended solely for the male gaze here is going to get a lot more BS from the community than someone who -is- writing for the male gaze.

And that's why there aren't more diverse stories and authors here.

Also: to the poster saying this is a left-leaning site with a diverse and female-heavy audience/authorship? L O L not even close. And that's fine, but I'd -never- recommend this site to any serious writer coming from a POC background, who isn't writing for a white young cis male audience with rightwing leanings, or who is a serious LGBT author (aka not writing harem, lesbian, or gender bender stuff to cater to the male audience who--for some odd reason--claims they can't read a female POV if there's any love arc or plot that doesn't revolve around fulfilling a male fantasy wish-list).

The OPs original remarks, especially those pertaining to female characters, are absolutely the same sort of remarks I've seen by those with the ideology I mentioned previously.  If nothing else, it reiterates my misgivings about ever posting any of my work here again, and if it were not for trying to stay in touch with a few folks here and there via the PM system, I'd likely never log in at all.

1. Complicated

2. I don’t focus on this. Now and then I might use a few trigger words, it is quite slight and missable really.

3. Nope

4. Only my novella, not my main works.

5. Nope

It looks like you’ve gotten the worst of the bunch. I haven’t encountered negativity on it as a whole. 

Re: I hate the 'everyone just gets along in the end' cliche

#33
theamir Wrote: Is your lead:
1) Young (under 30)?
2) Purposely written to be attractive (especially to the male gaze/audience here)?
3) LitRPG/progression/harem?
4) A lesbian?
5) In need of being rescued by a male supporting character/supporting POV?

If you answer "yes" to more than 2 of those--congrats! You're writing for the male gaze and not a general audience

So if you're writing about a lesbian teenager, you're INSTANTLY writing for the male gaze.

Guess I should tell all those teen LGBT writers to pack it in, they're all misogynists!

Maybe I should write about a middle aged straight white woman. We could call it... Karen. Or something like that.

theamir Wrote: The OPs original remarks, especially those pertaining to female characters, are absolutely the same sort of remarks I've seen by those with the ideology I mentioned previously.  If nothing else, it reiterates my misgivings about ever posting any of my work here again

Did you not see everyone in the thread tearing into them for their stupidity?

Re: I hate the 'everyone just gets along in the end' cliche

#34

MarikoRawralton Wrote:
theamir Wrote: Is your lead:
1) Young (under 30)?
2) Purposely written to be attractive (especially to the male gaze/audience here)?
3) LitRPG/progression/harem?
4) A lesbian?
5) In need of being rescued by a male supporting character/supporting POV?

If you answer "yes" to more than 2 of those--congrats! You're writing for the male gaze and not a general audience

So if you're writing about a lesbian teenager, you're INSTANTLY writing for the male gaze.

Guess I should tell all those teen LGBT writers to pack it in, they're all misogynists!

Maybe I should write about a middle aged straight white woman. We could call it... Karen. Or something like that.

theamir Wrote: The OPs original remarks, especially those pertaining to female characters, are absolutely the same sort of remarks I've seen by those with the ideology I mentioned previously.  If nothing else, it reiterates my misgivings about ever posting any of my work here again

Did you not see everyone in the thread tearing into them for their stupidity?

Did you not understand the "two or more of the above" part of my comment? Or did you immediately decide to get triggered? <--- it was this one.

When a male author (the majority of authors here) writes an attractive lesbian, it's almost -exclusively- for the male gaze. We also see this in porn--most porn is made for the male gaze no matter if it involves lesbians or straight sex.

Secondly, I saw as many comments defending the OP's position.

Third: there are better sites for women, POC, and other diverse authors and readers. RR ain't it. I'm sorry if that bothers you so greatly, but that's really not my fault.

Anyway, cya!

Re: I hate the 'everyone just gets along in the end' cliche

#35

theamir Wrote: Did you not understand the "two or more of the above" part of my comment? Or did you immediately decide to get triggered? <--- it was this one.

I said "teen LGBT stories" as in Lesbian characters under 30, you hollow headed buffoon.

Hate this stupid "haha sorry for getting under your skin" attitude. Nobody cares if you do or don't post your stories here.

Edit: Didn't even notice LitRPG was one of the things you put on your list. So basically writing a certain genre is a potential red flag for misogyny?

Re: I hate the 'everyone just gets along in the end' cliche

#36

MarikoRawralton Wrote:
theamir Wrote: Did you not understand the "two or more of the above" part of my comment? Or did you immediately decide to get triggered? <--- it was this one.

I said "teen LGBT stories" as in Lesbian characters under 30, you hollow headed buffoon.

Hate this stupid "haha sorry for getting under your skin" attitude. Nobody cares if you do or don't post your stories here.

Shouldn’t stress yourself out about this. This person probably had a bad experience, and that is what they know. However, it is unacceptable of their behavior. There are also a number of factors that can go into being negatively received. In the end though, there will be a lot that dislikes your work, and a lot that likes it. The base however, might be smaller depending on what is specifically written.

Re: I hate the 'everyone just gets along in the end' cliche

#37
Edge Wrote: Shouldn’t stress yourself out about this. This person probably had a bad experience, and that is what they know. However, it is unacceptable of their behavior.

I'm particularly miffed because I've had the bisexual protagonist in my story be criticized as "yuri bait" and "wish fulfillment" when her relationship with her girlfriend is the main theme of the story.

It feels insulting and is frankly why I don't even use the term LGBT to describe my story, cuz people like this who think it's fetishism. LGBT people and stories are not fetishes or kinks, it's a real thng.

Re: I hate the 'everyone just gets along in the end' cliche

#38

MarikoRawralton Wrote: I'm particularly miffed because I've had the bisexual protagonist in my story be criticized as "yuri bait" and "wish fulfillment" when her relationship with her girlfriend is the main theme of the story.

It feels insulting and is frankly why I don't even use the term LGBT to describe my story, cuz people like this who think it's fetishism. LGBT people and stories are not fetishes or kinks, it's a real thng.

Ah, yeah. Someone once explained this to me as well, and I don’t use LGBTQ+ to describe my novella. Rather I just put it up front of the specifics in the author notes, and assure them that it is not the focus. That is probably the most I can do. I don’t think I have encountered those specific people yet. 

I as well focus on the relationship of the characters, and typically not in a romantic sense as well. Though how close they are, if there is romance, that is a side thing. 

And I agree with you, it is not a fetish, these people do exist out there. During my high school and early college years, knew quite a lot from the LGBTQ+ community. What I noticed peeps seem to get wrong, is that…these are normal people. They have emotions, friendly bunch, and just wants to be equal. I had a friend that was too afraid to come clean with their family. It can be pretty difficult, but there are those who embrace it, and live their lives. I never had a problem with them, but I have seen the nasty side of others, as well as misconceptions. 

Re: I hate the 'everyone just gets along in the end' cliche

#39

theamir Wrote:
Edge Wrote:
I Wrote:
theamir Wrote: There's a term for a mindset like this and it begins with "i" and ends with "l".

One of the reasons I don't post my work here; there's a lot of young boys and men who have a massive grudge and tons of misconceptions about women, and will immediately downvote female-led work.

Well, my work has a female lead, and it's doing, well, kinda fine???

I think this is a misconception as well. So far, I believe almost everyone that have seen my work takes my lead quite positively. Female led as well. There are really only a few that doesn’t like my works, which is fine, people have their own preferences. If they don’t give a reason, I don’t really care. If they give one, then I’ll give it a look. If it is simply there to attack or shows the reader doesn’t understand, I tend to ignore it. In most cases, there really isn’t anything one can do, it comes down to the base. I say, write for your base, but if you draw in those from outside as well, then that is a bonus.



Is your lead:
1) Young (under 30)?
2) Purposely written to be attractive (especially to the male gaze/audience here)?
3) LitRPG/progression/harem?
4) A lesbian?
5) In need of being rescued by a male supporting character/supporting POV?

If you answer "yes" to more than 2 of those--congrats! You're writing for the male gaze and not a general audience, let alone a diverse audience. Now, there's nothing inherently wrong with that--you can cater to whatever audience you wish--but realize that someone writing a female POV that ISN'T intended solely for the male gaze here is going to get a lot more BS from the community than someone who -is- writing for the male gaze.

And that's why there aren't more diverse stories and authors here.

Also: to the poster saying this is a left-leaning site with a diverse and female-heavy audience/authorship? L O L not even close. And that's fine, but I'd -never- recommend this site to any serious writer coming from a POC background, who isn't writing for a white young cis male audience with rightwing leanings, or who is a serious LGBT author (aka not writing harem, lesbian, or gender bender stuff to cater to the male audience who--for some odd reason--claims they can't read a female POV if there's any love arc or plot that doesn't revolve around fulfilling a male fantasy wish-list).

The OPs original remarks, especially those pertaining to female characters, are absolutely the same sort of remarks I've seen by those with the ideology I mentioned previously.  If nothing else, it reiterates my misgivings about ever posting any of my work here again, and if it were not for trying to stay in touch with a few folks here and there via the PM system, I'd likely never log in at all.



I'm not quite sure I agree that the points you laid out indicate a story caters to the male audience as you suggest, but that might just be because I'm a guy. I wrote my own book as something my daughter might enjoy when she's older, and if we use your points as a indicator, then my book caters to a male audience. The lead character is an 18 year old female, attractive, and it's LitRPG. But just because it hits those points doesn't mean it falls into that category as you say. I'm not saying catering to a male audience doesn't happen, rather that your points are too vague to be actual indicators.

In my book, she's young because I want my daughter to identify with her when she can read it.

She's attractive because she made herself that way in the game, her own insecurities about her appearance causing her to make adjustments until she felt satisfied. But she's not the only one, even the guys in the game make themselves more attractive, and even her foster-brother takes advantage of this feature to make himself a seven foot tall warrior with a bright red mohawk when he's a small mousy guy in the real world. 

And it's LitRPG because...well...I grew to love the style more than any other. I didn't write it so that other 'guys' would enjoy it, I wrote it for anyone who enjoys games and the LitRPG genre.

That's 3/6 points of your indicators there, but I feel it's inaccurate to say that hitting these markers automatically mean a story caters to the male gaze. At least not entirely, I feel like your brushing up against the real markers but not quite there. Harem, yeah I have to agree on that one. Female lead needing to be rescued, yeah that too (without spoiling anything, I actually have a scene in my book where she's rescued by a guy but I like to think I turned this trope around with how the scene ends). But the other markers... they are too broad and vague to be true indicators.

Re: I hate the 'everyone just gets along in the end' cliche

#40

theamir Wrote: Is your lead:
1) Young (under 30)?
2) Purposely written to be attractive (especially to the male gaze/audience here)?
3) LitRPG/progression/harem?
4) A lesbian?
5) In need of being rescued by a male supporting character/supporting POV?


1. yes
2. nope
3. no?
4. XD nope
5. Incredibly complicated, but how you have phrased it? No.

Markus and Aela are in need of saving by one another for all manner of reasons as the story progresses. They are a team and their world is dangerous. 

Female protagonists and "the male gaze" are not the problem.

Be aware of your intended demographic. Don't make Captain Marvel then scream when some people don't like it. people are allowed to have personal preferences you don't agree with.

Good writing can draw in peripheral demographics, bad writing drives out all but the most committed.