Re: Optimum sexual content for fictions

#121
Because exemple doesn't make rule. 

Never do you have a true argument. 

Examples are at the bottom of the evidence pyramid for a reason: they are unreliable and prone to selection bias. 

The other point is the fallacy of your correlations. There are no proof of causality. 
It's like saying cars kill thousands of people every year= car constructors are mass murderers... It's just logical fallacy. 

If you really believe what you are saying, it is just proof that you have unrationnal thinking. Thus we can refute your conclusion without the need to prove you are wrong because the charge of the evidence lies on you. 

But I believe you already know all of this and are just trolling. ^^

Re: Optimum sexual content for fictions

#122
Tynian, again, I understand if you disagree that pornography can play a part in causing one to commit sexual abuse, but saying real-life examples are weak because I, like everyone else, am bias?  That's not a real argument.  I showed you real examples of pornography having negative effects.  It can't be perfectly harmless if it leads to the viewing of a woman as an object, if it was the reason for a friend's near-suicide, and if it was the reason my cousin was either murdered or worse.  You may believe real-life examples are weak; however this is not a rule, but your opinion.

I showed you my evidence.  If you believe me wrong, then the charge of evidence for such a claim lies on you.  Don't just say that I am biased like everyone else and that you think real-life events are weak.  Show me substantial reasons that what I said is false.   If you cannot do that, then this conversation is not worth continuing.

Sincerely, Wile

Re: Optimum sexual content for fictions

#124
Tynian, no causality, you say?  So my stripper cousin was abducted and killed or worse because of what then?  And my friend who literally said it was pornography that made him want to kill himself, he just doesn't exist then?  Lust is sexual desire, and we all know what sex is.  Is it respectful to strip a person down and have sex with them in your mind?  You know it's not.  Being that I have not received legitimate counter-points or a small amount of respect from you, but instead have been talked at, I will not continue this conversation with you any further.

Sincerely, Wile

Re: Optimum sexual content for fictions

#126
Again no correlation.

What is the common ground between a stripper and an erotic novel? Reading novels incite people to kidnap strippers? is that your point? ^^

Same goes for your friend, there are people addicted to video games to the point it ruined their life, must we forbid video games for all? 

And there is no problem with fantasizing. Unless you are mad and can't differenciate between reality and fantasy. But then the problem isn't fantasizing, but rather the madness. ^^

Re: Optimum sexual content for fictions

#127
This thread has veered off its original intention which was to discuss what is too much sex in literature before it is considered pornographic.
The discussion is not about whether or not pornography increases sexual assault.
It's not about if people who are adults should be allowed to consume adult content.
If someone doesn't want to read adult content they don't have to, and if vile is against it, why is he in a thread debating the amount of sexual content in literature when he (my assumption) doesn't consume it?

Re: Optimum sexual content for fictions

#128

Wilewriter17 Wrote: Tynian, no causality, you say?  So my stripper cousin was abducted and killed or worse because of what then?  And my friend who literally said it was pornography that made him want to kill himself, he just doesn't exist then?  Lust is sexual desire, and we all know what sex is.  Is it respectful to strip a person down and have sex with them in your mind?  You know it's not.  Being that I have not received legitimate counter-points or a small amount of respect from you, but instead have been talked at, I will not continue this conversation with you any further.

Sincerely, Wile

So, I am going to be a bit rough. I actually think that your view, or people with your view of pornography, has done more harm to those two examples than anyone else.

Why did he feel bad about watching pornography? Was it because there is inherently something wrong with it... or that his surroundings made him believe it was wrong and "shameful" to watch it. I want to bet my left nut that he came from some kind of religious or conservative family who made him believe it is wrong. In his case, I would say that those things were way bigger contributors than porn existing.


And... we don't know why someone was abducted or killed... but assuming it is because pornography exists is just utterly insane. First of all, do you think abductions and killing of sex workers is anything new? Prostitution is often referred to as the oldest profession; people have been having sex and paid to have sex since forever. Women in modern times are treated way less like objects than they used to be, despite porn being more and more normal and socially accepted across the world.

But let's say that your cousin was abducted due to being a stripper... isn't that proof that sex should be more normalized? That it should have more oversight? That more legal bodies should be invested in it and ensure the safety of those involved? Because that is how it sounds to me.

You also ask if it isn't disrespectful to have sex with someone in your mind... no, no, it isn't. Especially not if that person has willingly produced a product meant for you to enjoy. I would find it way more disrespectful to judge them for how they choose to express themselves and show off their own body.

Honestly... you talk like you have some seriously backward and conservative views that just don't reflect reality. No credible study has ever linked pornography to increase kidnappings or suicides, yet you claim they do. Instead, my argument would be that believing pornography is wrong is far more likely to lead to suicides and kidnappings. For the kidnapping part, I don't quite have any studies. Still, it shouldn't take much to find ones on how shaming people for natural behavior (like watching porn and being sexually expressive) could lead to depression and/or suicide.

As a final note... I seriously feel like I need your age or at least a ballpark. The mere fact that you should you wouldn't do it as it can be used to identify you makes me believe you are either on the really young end or someone really old that doesn't understand how completely meaningless sharing an age is... or at least an age range.

Re: Optimum sexual content for fictions

#129
I feel that everyone needs to kind of back off of the entire argument.
I don't agree with anything Wilewriter17 says, but clearly he only believes what he is saying due to the horrible experiences in his life. What he fails to realize is that these experiences are not universal, and experiences, unless the cause and effect can be observed in a controlled environment doesn't equal factual evidence.
I feel sorry for him, I wish his friends and family were never hurt, but porn doesn't make people do bad things- people do bad things all on their own, and that is the sad, cruel fact about life.
It is the hardest pill to swallow for many, many people. Everyone thinks there is some kind of reason that they were put through a test, that coming through some kind trauma makes them stronger but very rarely it does. We look for answers in different areas of life so I can understand how you came to the conclusion that porn was what ruined parts of your life and hurt the people you cared about.
It's a lot easier and the world makes a lot more sense when there is something solid to point at, to describe your pain instead of accepting that sometimes bad things happen because someone decided to hurt someone else, or because someone made a bad choice.
For a very long time I believed the same thing, that I could point at something in my life to understand why others had hurt me, and sometimes the answer boils down to one thing: people are cruel.
That person took your cousin because they're evil. Pornography didn't. I'm sorry. 

Re: Optimum sexual content for fictions

#130
This isn't a debate, this wasn't meant to be a debate, if it were it would be in the debate section. and most importantly, this topic was never about sexual violence.

stop taking people's opinions personally, unless the opinion is going to directly harm you or someone else, you have zero rights to say that it is wrong. if you do disagree with an opinion, you can state your own and try to convince them of your opinion, however the moment you try and tell them that their opinion is wrong is the moment that both sides of the argument lose.

Also, stop attacking people, what the hell is with that? There is no reason to be making personal jabs against someone else in a discussion. Certainly you can attack their argument, you can debate about the topic, however going after them personally? what are you a politician? just stop it, please.

You keep acting like Wile's opinion on pornography is somehow going to hurt someone? why can't you just treat it like someone saying they are asexual? if someone said that you aren't going to tell them to have sex, so why are you telling him porn is just fine for him.

Honestly, a lot of you are being just straight up jerks. I bet you are all great people, but for some reason a lot of you are just not showing that in the slightest in this argument. How hard is it to just be nice and respectful in a discussion? You are all asking for Wile's age but acting way more immature than him, he said that he was of legal age in his country of origin, so past that you have no reason to ask for more(I'm not going to debate this so don't bother).

Re: Optimum sexual content for fictions

#131
Nautilus Wrote: why can't you just treat it like someone saying they are asexual? if someone said that you aren't going to tell them to have sex, so why are you telling him porn is just fine for him.

Actually, I do resent having an asexual person enforce their own preferences on others. You're not into sex? I respect that. Some of us are into sex or at least see it as something normal and not something to be condemned. Respect that.

You do you and I'll do me (or someone else if we're both in the mood and consenting adults).

Re: Optimum sexual content for fictions

#132
Meteoraguy, having sex with someone in your head, viewing them as an object for pleasure, is not justified just because it might vent the desire.  It also might grow the desire, as illustrated by myself whenever I'm exposed to it, my friend who almost committed suicide, and that relative who watched it for decades.

Zogarth, my friend was not a Christian, though he is now.  He was raised by a Christian mother who didn't make him go to Church and a non-Christian father who was also doing pornography.  Additionally, as I said in a previous post, he never got caught, so he did not have anyone shaming him for it.  He even said watching pornography for all those years is what made him depressed.  When he says it's the causation and he had no one shaming him for it, how, then, is pornography not what gave him depression?  

As for the cousin, there are details I am refraining from giving, as the investigation on the event is still going on, but those details show it was certainly connected to her working at a strip club.  The point concerning her is that involvement in the pornography business led to her getting killed or worse.  As for the government making stripping safer, maybe they could, but I'm doubtful, as there are many abductees they have not caught.

As for my age, I'm old enough to have a good job and license, but I am certainly no baby boomer.  Why do I think it's important not to say my exact age?  You're strangers who I don't want to give any personal information to.  I like my privacy and it's always best to be safe.

And lastly, my overall point isn't that pornography leads to sexually abusing people.  I think it can play a factor, but I understand the other viewpoint on that.  If you want to read the post with my main point in it, read page 6 of the forum, the tenth post down.  

Now, I have to take a break from this forum, whether for a little while or permanently.  This is way too draining for me.

Sincerely, Wile

Re: Optimum sexual content for fictions

#133
I am a bit late to this party. 

Those that insulted others were warned. Please note that this is not acceptable here, and we will not tolerate such behavior.

Also, the topic of the debate is almost too serious for the platform. Regardless of that, It got a little bit too heated here, and I think there are enough responses. So, please only provide your opinion, in relation to the question first proposed.  If this thread continued in a different direction, the thread will be closed, or replies will be deleted

Re: Optimum sexual content for fictions

#134
There is no optimum amount of sexual content; it’s a misleading question.

There was a famous marketing case study back in the day, where a company hired a marketer to test spaghetti sauces to find the market favourite to base their recipe off. The results were clear - there was no one winning formula, because different people have different preferences. That’s how you end up with market segmentation. And it can be applied to almost any product or service people consume. The end result here was that the company was able to identify a gap in the market no other company was filling (due to assuming they knew what people wanted), and they were able to fill it and make a lot of profit. ;)

I’m also a little concerned by the surprise at different viewpoints and the accusations of prudishness being thrown around. Some people love punk music. Some don’t. Some people might love punk music but only at live concerts. Some people might not enjoy listening to music at all. It’s the same with sex. It’s the same with anything.

Also, a friendly reminder that ace people exist.

As for my personal stance on the matter - I find sexual content extremely boring and don’t enjoy it at all (with rare exceptions). There are three main reasons for this, neither of which are prudishness.

1. It dramatically slows down the pace of the story while (usually) adding very little if anything to the plot. I don’t want to read three pages of minutely-detailed sex scene for the same reason I don’t want to read three pages of minutely-detailed woodworking tips.

2. (And this is the real kicker) It’s everywhere, with very little variation. Three pages of detailed sexual scene would be a lot more interesting if you saw it about as often as you saw three pages of detailed woodworking tips (which is to say, very rarely outside of woodworking textbooks). A sex scene begins, and you generally know how it’s going to go for the duration of that scene. But woodworking? Now, that’s a whole field I know nothing about and can be surprised by. My point is, when I see essentially the exact same scene repeated ad nauseum in hundreds of books, it becomes tiresome. Good execution helps, but ultimately I read fantasy to discover new and imaginative ideas.

3. I just don’t find romance interesting. I avoid the genre. That’s my personal taste, and there’s nothing wrong with it, just like there’s nothing wrong with readers who appreciate it.

In the end, it boils down to people being different and having different tastes. There’s no optimal answer, so write what you want to write and don’t worry so much about what other people like. They can avoid it if it isn’t their thing.

Re: Optimum sexual content for fictions

#135

Csuite Wrote: There is no optimum amount of sexual content; it’s a misleading question.


This is my entire thought on this entire thing.

I don't exactly go into a reading story expecting x amount of anything.  If I'm writing, I'm not writing to put  x amount of anything. Certainly I make it difficult for myself because of my self-indulgent ways to selfishly write for me. However, no one else is going to write what I want, mostly because I'm a minority audience. I'm a niche of a niche.

I mean really I just prefer there not be much sex in anything I read. I'm not going to get that. I'll just be continuously bored with everything reading the same with no one writing a unique experience. Most of the time you can feel the sex being inserted in to fill a quota.  And maybe that might work for a chunk of the populace that enjoys it. I, for one, don't find it enjoyable at all. Sometimes it's eye roll inducing. 

People have unique tastes.

Not everything needs to be written the same.

Re: Optimum sexual content for fictions

#136
I prefer implied sex. I don't know, I rather have more mature partners in the romantic relationships(which isn't seen as often), than the whole:

"I never said I liked you!" / "We can't be together!"

or:

"I love her/him/them." (Literally met a day ago)

Rather have a couple that is... just there for their partner?

I don't know. Maybe I'm just rambling now.

--

Maybe it's because of my preference to understand the relationships between characters, then annoying out-of-place fluff or smut.

Re: Optimum sexual content for fictions

#137
For me, a story should progress. Explicit sex scenes, like overly detailed fight scenes, halt story progress and become boring. However, if a character experiences thoughts and feelings that affect how they will move forward in the story afterwards, then, absolutely, that sex scene is crucial. Just as a fight scene where the character sees their best friend die, or they get injured, which goes on to affect their ability to do other story things after. Sex for the sake of writing sex, and fighting for the sake of writing fighting achieve the same end... nothing (or boredom).

You can imply that a settled couple have regular sexual interaction without showing us every time (once it no longer progresses story/character development), yet sometimes the way sex feels between two people can be affected by what is going on in their lives, so THAT would be of interest to read.

Basically, I want people (or whatever kind of characters) who feel real. And what better way to give a story depth than to consider each character's sexual desire. Are they horny all the time? Asexual? Aromantic? Do they tend to get horny when emotional? (Funerals and weddings, apparently). Were they super thirsty until something happened in their lives and now the "friends with benefits" partner is feeling like a loose thread?

Sex is just as much a part of character change and growth as violence or diplomacy.

Re: Optimum sexual content for fictions

#139
In my opinion, it really depends on the genre.

If I pick up a story that's advertised itself as a litrpg, adventure, or fantasy story first and foremost with romance either being non-existent or not even implied ten chapters into the story, its super jarring when sexual content does appear. I also detest when I'm reading a story, particularly a web serial that's gone on for 50+ chapters following some isekai'd/reborn character's new life in their new world, and the author decides to shoe horn in hints of a sexual moment just so the main character is no longer a virgin. I guess authors do this in an attempt to show their character growing up into an adult, but no, just no. It's entirely unnecessary. This is even worse if its with a side character that wasn't that likeable to begin with. Then that unlikeable side character reappears later and OF COURSE they just act like friends/acquaintances again and nothing happened. Like um... hello?

If the scene is so unimportant that even an author's own characters forget it, just don't include it. Don't write sexual content for sexual content's sake in a story that isn't meant to be an erotica. Some of the stories I've read that have made this mistake, you could literally delete all mentions and hints of it from the story and nothing changes.

If you can delete a scene and nothing changes at all for the progress of the story, you should really re-consider if you want to leave it in.

Now, things change if the genre and focus of the story changes. Romance focused stories are completely different beasts. With a romance, the best romances I've read focus on tension, emotional attachment, and building up the reasons the main characters are attracted to one another. If the main characters in a romance are hopping into bed with each other within three chapters, I'm out. Likewise, if a story throws sex scene after sex scene at you every three chapters, especially detailed ones, I drop it. 

I would prefer a long romance that shows character progression, tension, and a build up to one great sex scene (doesn't even have be explicit, there are great vaguely described, and emotionally impactful sex scenes) then a romance story where explicit sexual content is tossed at the reader so frequently that every romance scene loses its impact. Give me two characters spinning into each other's lives like a pair of binary stars slowly being pulled together by gravity, hear?

This sort of "over doing" doesn't just apply to sex scenes or sexual content. The Litrpg genre, for example, is really bad about overtly abusing "action scenes". The more frequently long, drawn out fight scenes appear, the less impact they have on the reader. They start to get boring.

If you have detailed romance scenes between every couple in your story, its start to get boring.

But that might just be me.

peolove