Re: Can utopia become reality?

Just warning, with this pandemic, and even before it, many are experiencing difficulties, so I am not belittling and I do not want to offend anyone.

Studying history very superficially, it is possible to see that the living conditions of our ancestors were very bad, I dare say that the HDI of their countries would be negative using the current metrics. However, since the moment when rational thought began to prevail over the mystical, there has been a great increase in the quality of life of the common person.

Now, imagine if you are isekaied to Europe in the Early Middle Ages and say to a common plebeian that in the future his descendants would eat better food than kings, could ascend socially and have a significantly longer average life expectancy, without fear of dying suddenly? Probably, they would call you crazy, and at that time there was not even the word utopia (it was invented in 1516, although Plato formed the first ideas of utopia more than a millennium before). Elsewhere in the world, the situation probably wasn’t much better, but I haven’t studied so I won’t comment.

But the point here is that if the inhabitants of that period knew about the concept of utopia, they would probably classify our reality as one of them. So, what do you think, utopia (except socialism) can come true?

Re: Can utopia become reality?

In a sense utopia is a matter of perspective. Our world today, even with all its problems, would be considered a utopia by the people of the Middle Ages. In turn, a future world would be considered a utopia by the people of today. It seems utopia is always one step ahead of where we actually are. So in that sense, I'd say utopia is not possible as mankind is always looking for something better. 

Re: Can utopia become reality?

When defined as a synonym for 'Perfect Society,' Utopia cannot exist because perfection is a quest, not a goal. And once a goal has been achieved, the quest ends. 

Also, since what is best for one person is oftentimes not what is best for another person, the concept of a society that is best for everyone is unobtainable. But do not despair! What you have said is right -- it's in the cosmic nature of things to get better over time.

Let's just hope that, in the cosmic nature of things, Man remains an intergral part.

Re: Can utopia become reality?

Yes, it's possible but like parkertallan said it's much a matter of perspective. So, we need a culture shift towards contentment with what we have and a willingness to pass on the good stuff before we have a chance to achieve it. It's not something that will become reality with simply a technology shift. Just like a torn and traumatized society will cause traumatized people, a calm and fulfilled society will cause calm and fulfilled people. Those are pretty rare tho, we need more. If there's a tipping point where more people are emotionally and mentally healthy than the opposite, we'll be on our way and can get there unless we're derailed. Maybe we should all start meditating or something, idk. I'm just saying it can happen bdw, not that I think it ever will. I'd hope so, but it seems unlikely to happen before our species eat itself out of the world. 

Re: Can utopia become reality?

To live up to the concept and name a utopia would need to be ideal. But what is ideal is different for different people. This is of course why the communists try to break people down and strip them of their individuality. If you can reduce everyone to a baseline then a one-size-fits-all utopia is theoretically possible. However, such a concept flies in the face of the human spirit (and human rights), so I view it as an abomination, rather than a paradise.

Anyway, going back to the original idea, there is a way to create an ideal world without crushing individuality: Full-dive virtual reality. The trick is you would need to not allow other humans into the personal simulation because their personal ideals may clash with your personal ideals. However, you would need to convince the subject of the simulation that they were in fact not alone, and that somehow the rest of the world just so happened to be what they wanted at all times. In essence, the subject of the simulation becomes god of their personal utopia (aware of the fact or otherwise). I personally view this as a hollow and meaningless existence, but I could see many people choosing to live in this "virtual utopia" rather than struggle against the never-ending clashing of desires we have always existed with. I could only imagine the relief and/or deep disappointment a person would feel upon exiting such a simulation to find a real-world rife with struggle and endless compromise.

Re: Can utopia become reality?


444.EXE Wrote: it is possible to see that the living conditions of our ancestors were very bad,

444.EXE Wrote: (except socialism)

I hate (not really) to be that guy,  but this really is inherently a very political question. The answer to what your perfect society looks like, is the answer to the question of your ideology-- and as humans can't agree on anything, some might think that a universal utopia could not be feasible, for the exact reason you put "except socialism" in your question.

The first part about us having a higher standard of living, is very interesting too, because it depends by what you mean. We certainly live more conveniently than any other people in history. But human individual happiness has been on a steady decline since the agricultural revolution.

Humans also have probably the lowest death rates and a higher average life span in history, but that's compared to the lowest crests experienced during the industrial revolution. Hunter gatherers lived almost as long as we did, as did the Romans. And they were a lot happier than we are. Us living today in the first world are experiencing the highest levels of comfort but also the highest levels of depression, suicide, chronic lonliness and chronic stress. Was that a worthy trade off? I think it's an interesting question.

I'm not trying to fight people on here anymore, so I'm not going to get into the rationalism thing, but to answer your question, I think the answer has to be yes.
I don't think the world we live in today is at all the best we can strive for. I think the current systems are unjust and oppressive, and actual "individual freedom" is really just reserved for the very few. You only have to look to the American health care system, child labour in third world countries by Western companies, the treatment of Muslims in France, Grenfell Tower or The Windrush scandal (off the top of my head) for that. 

I do think humanity's insatiable desire for expansion is honestly what will ultimately be it's doom, but the moment you start believing a better, if not perfect world is not possible to attain is the moment you doom yourself to that fate as you are less likely to put in the work to achieve it (I think that's a quote from Noam Chomsky). No one can see the future, but mindsets can impact reality, so I think there is a "correct" answer to your question even if we can't know if it's "accurate".

So yeah, regardless of any argument to the contrary, I choose to believe that a true utopia can become reality, and I think it's important to think that way.

Re: Can utopia become reality?

RenamedUser8903457 Wrote: Hunter gatherers lived almost as long as we did, as did the Romans.

This is incorrect. At the height of the Roman Empire, the average life expectancy at birth was twenty-five years. Today worldwide it is almost triple that -- over seventy years.

Half of all Romans died at birth, and of those that didn't, half again died before they turned five. And of those that lived that long, half again died before reaching adulthood. That adds up to seven out of eight people dying before they reach eighteen.
Things are much better now. ❤🦆😸🐰❤

Re: Can utopia become reality?

Not to poke the crowd, but since when was Utopia about average life span?  

Don't eat that, don't drink that, don't smoke that, don't swim there, don't climb mountains, don't live...all so you can reach the age that you forget your own name, someone else has to wipe your butt for you, and you haven't had sex in 30 years. 

(Lights up a cigar, and pops another beer open.) 

Back on topic, the concept of Utopia boils down to one major point. And it is also the reason pure capitalism, pure libritarianism, socialism, marxism, and communism will never work.  

Can humanity, as a whole, be perfected? 

As we all know it is much easier to destroy something than it is to create something.  So, even if ninety percent of humans magically became sinless saints, the ten percent of flawed people would create havoc without some mechanism to force them to obey the rules. This means we would need laws. 

More systems of control would be necessary, because of course some will still not obey.   This means police, courts, and prisons. 

But who will police the police?  Now even more systems of control will be needed.  This means even more powerful law enforcement. Like the Federal Courts, FBI, ATF, and more.  Many more imperfect people will be drawn to power like moths to a flame, making the system itself more and more controlling and flawed over time. 

But hell, I'm buzzed and gonna eat me some greasy food.

Re: Can utopia become reality?

Cambridge dictionary defines utopia as "a perfect society in which people work well with each other and are happy." Further as Wes McCabe said about the root of the word means that such a place is "nowhere." 

The way you phrase the question "Can utopia become reality." suggest your anger and/or sadness at today's soceities. To be honest who isn't upset at the moment? I also agree with other commentors what counts as perfection is down to opinion. Your personal standpoint but moreover what matters differs between cultures. 

I think to depends on how you want to use the concept of utopia. It is a political concept. If you want to criticse the political governments, parties or movements of today by arguing for a different society that is in your opinion "better" then the concept of utopia is useful. But it is also dangerous because striving for perfection is not practical? 'Perfection' is usually apart from what people actually do thus creates a lot of stress trying to live up to perfection. Also, it is messy when considering that if perfection means the best society it implies that it is ruled by the best which is the defintion of Aristocracy. A political stance I certainly don't support. Further a philospher like Spinoza (who I do not claim to understand) argues that all of reality is already perfect to further confuse matters. Personally I do not agree with seeking a perfect self let alone a perfect society.  

You end by saying not socialism which I get, history has not be kind to the left as a political stance. However, if you are seeking utopia I assume you want social change? Changing society is not a task for individuals but I would act for your own well-being at least. What that action is depends on your circusmtances it might be a kind act to others or to yourself, I volunteer giving children educational support they could not get otherwise, it could be reading widely and deeply to broaden knowledge and further your understanding and many more options besides.