Re: Your fedora-tipping atheism makes your fantasy gods boring

#22

Bellarom Wrote: I think everybody is familiar with this. God bad, religion of any kind bad, church bad, bla bla bla. It got boring pretty fast, franky.

When will I read a story where the established church in a story is actually good? I haven't found even one so far. Why do the gods have to be bad, can't they help the beings they created? Why do they have to be always sadistic bastards? Why does the church have to be bad? The god in the story can give blessings to the priests, for example, which enables them to heal people or remove curses. Let's say they get more power from the blessing, the more pious they are.

Authors always just like to create cheap antagonists with little creativty. Oh, the fantasy world's church is bad? How original.

Another thing, which relates to isekais where the MC meets the god/goddess: you won't be an insolent fool in front of someone that can give you endless torture. Seriously why do people write this? Is it because of all the japanese novels that do this? Think about it, it makes no sense. At most, it can establish that the MC is immensely arrogant or fearless, but that never reflects further in the story.

This is just a rant after years of not seeing any change. The fact that it's always the same probably means that nobody will agree with me, but now that I got this out of me, I don't care



Your argument does not apply at all to my story, therefore your argument is invalid. 
If you'd like to know why, I'd encourage you to read my book rather than divulge spoilers. 
Than you for the easy victory to your debate. 

Re: Your fedora-tipping atheism makes your fantasy gods boring

#23
To give my perspective on the "why" question:

I think the logical outcome of most murder-hobo level-grinders is demi-god status. It really can't end up anyplace else without a hard cap. So, at that level, the only viable things left to fight are gods. Now, no matter how much of a cold-blooded murder-hobo the protagonist is, most readers would probably frown on killing a nice, helpful and peaceful god just for the sake of more levels. So the God needs to be evil, or at least bad enough that nobody cares much if they get offed for the sake of the MC's level-up.

Re: Your fedora-tipping atheism makes your fantasy gods boring

#24

Bellarom Wrote: I think everybody is familiar with this. God bad, religion of any kind bad, church bad, bla bla bla. It got boring pretty fast, franky.

When will I read a story where the established church in a story is actually good? I haven't found even one so far. Why do the gods have to be bad, can't they help the beings they created? Why do they have to be always sadistic bastards? Why does the church have to be bad? The god in the story can give blessings to the priests, for example, which enables them to heal people or remove curses. Let's say they get more power from the blessing, the more pious they are.

Authors always just like to create cheap antagonists with little creativty. Oh, the fantasy world's church is bad? How original.

Another thing, which relates to isekais where the MC meets the god/goddess: you won't be an insolent fool in front of someone that can give you endless torture. Seriously why do people write this? Is it because of all the japanese novels that do this? Think about it, it makes no sense. At most, it can establish that the MC is immensely arrogant or fearless, but that never reflects further in the story.

This is just a rant after years of not seeing any change. The fact that it's always the same probably means that nobody will agree with me, but now that I got this out of me, I don't care

I had no idea what "fedora-tipping atheism" even meant until I google searched it. I mean, I knew it was a hat, but I didn't get the reference. So it's kinda like an insult towards atheists. Cool...


Now, I won't go into the argument about religion being bad or good since, as many have pointed out, history is the best example for that. I personally don't think anything falls completely in one spectrum...

But I don't think it's atheism that's making the fantasy gods and religion boring. It's a system of belief, just like any religion. And I doubt if half the people writing god bad stories are truly atheist. Now certainly, you can dislike a certain trope, but you can't really call it boring. It's just your personal taste that many others might not share. If it's really boring, it has nothing to do with one's belief. The answer probably lies elsewhere. I don't know, like... poor and lazy storytelling??? 

I thought, at least as a writer, that much was obvious...

As for originality, nowadays most everything has been done before, so nothing is probably original anyway. It's just the writer's skill in moulding the tropes that makes a story good or bad. If you want originality, at least, fantasy isn't the place to look for. Originality doesn't lie in the concept, rather how you present them...

As for endless torture, I don't think that's something that a "morally good" god would do. Tricking the gods, arguing with them, even sometimes downright insulting them isn't really first introduced by the Japanese LNs. The Greek, Norse, Hindu, mainly the polytheistic religions had such stories. Though it usually never ended well for the mortal tricksters, sometimes they did come out with the last laugh...

And I think though the majority are those god bad, church bad stories, there are still many with good gods and religions. Especially, among those Japanese LNs, where the gods actively help out the isekaid person(and no, not just chaos or evil gods). If you haven't found stories with good gods, maybe you haven't tried looking...

Re: Your fedora-tipping atheism makes your fantasy gods boring

#28

Ramingo Wrote: History has shown what? That religion is bad? peoconfused
Didn't know that religion has free will and did those atrocities on its own.  DrakanBook

Anyway, entirely good or bad gods are boring, but I doubt that has anything to do with atheism and more with people just being bad writers or not bothering to do some research.

A thing doesn't have to have agency to be bad.  From the perspective of humans cyanide is bad, even though from the point of view of plants it's just a pesticide, and not a super-effective one either.

Re: Your fedora-tipping atheism makes your fantasy gods boring

#29
I do not know about what can be found in the webnovel isekai world, but I have a traditionally published recommendation for you:

The Mistborn trilogy, by Brandon Sanderson, has some very, very interesting things to say on the matter of religion, which I am afraid I cannot spoil. It does take place in a world with an oppressive "church."

After a prophesied hero failed, a dark lord has ruled over the world for a thousand years, setting up all sorts of organization to enforce his rule. He declares himself to be a sliver of infinity, and the god of the people. Among the main cast of characters, there is some very interesting religious discussion. The MCs hate the dark lord, and are therefore technically atheist, but there is a character who is trying to convert everyone to religions that existed prior to the ascension of the dark lord.

I should also note, that the author is definitely not an atheist.

This is only one small part of that absolutely awesome book series. I am leaving out things about other awesome characters, the awesome magic system, etc. It will likely become a movie maybe five years from now. I highly recommend.

Re: Your fedora-tipping atheism makes your fantasy gods boring

#30

Half Wrote: To give my perspective on the "why" question:

I think the logical outcome of most murder-hobo level-grinders is demi-god status. It really can't end up anyplace else without a hard cap. So, at that level, the only viable things left to fight are gods. Now, no matter how much of a cold-blooded murder-hobo the protagonist is, most readers would probably frown on killing a nice, helpful and peaceful god just for the sake of more levels. So the God needs to be evil, or at least bad enough that nobody cares much if they get offed for the sake of the MC's level-up.



Is this cookie cutter story really what constitutes as a plot with webnovels? Copying the progression of a D&D campaign? Perhaps the problem is not that a nice religion gets in the way but this very rigid story structure isn't allowing for more interesting plots.

Re: Your fedora-tipping atheism makes your fantasy gods boring

#31

WasatchWind Wrote: The MCs hate the dark lord, and are therefore technically atheist

I'm not quite sure, but I thought atheism doesn't mean hating the god, but not believing in its existence. To hate something, you have to believe it exists. Of course, I'm not talking about the dark lord in The Mistborn Trilogy(I love that series btw), cause the protagonists believed that he was no god but just another person with too much power. I'm talking about the general belief system...