Re: wil anyone be intrested to read a colection of "level-up" story ideas?

#21

emperor Wrote:
Zogarth Wrote:
emperor Wrote:
Zogarth Wrote:
emperor Wrote:
Zogarth Wrote:
emperor Wrote:
Zogarth Wrote:
emperor Wrote:
Zogarth Wrote: Making a system in broad strokes is easy; making a system with coherence is hard, but making a system that fits your story is the hardest.

I spent a lot of time designing the system in my novel, borrowing from all kinds of different genres and concepts, but in the end, what defined the system was not the mechanics of the system itself but the story it was meant to serve. Mine is complex in-depth (if I say so myself), but I have tried to make it easy to understand broad understandings of it (metaphors, yay).

The system is just a supporting feature for the story. Of course, it is an important element, but it isn't the most important, far from it. In the end, the system is made to serve the story; the story is not made to serve the system. That is at least my philosophy.

So my advice would be to write out some actual short stories with your ideas, make them into proper writing prompts (short story can also serve as this), or if you truly believe you have struck gold, write your own novel.

Ideas are cheap; the work required to make them a reality isn't. The only excuse for not bringing a good idea to life is laziness, unwillingness, or lack of confidence in the idea.

this is my main problem with authors who transition to the genre instead of authors that grow from the genre (litrpg/cultivation)

the story is a the supporting feature, not the other way around. people like me who like this genre dont read them for the story but for the way it is built around the system.

for example: the arcane emperor was here number one for a lot of time. shadow hack was number 3 on qindan before it was review bombed to oblivion. world of cultivation is amazing, and the legendary moonlight sculptor, whose this site is named after.
all of those stories are literately built around the system, and from my deep analysis of them, and that's why in the first place they become popular.
there is a good reason that most xianxia stories, even the good ones, take 100 chapters to get to the "plot" that s because readers are there for the system and do not care much for the world or characters, because they are not there for them in the first place.

i can write a whole guide on the subject. i even started a few treads on this here, but sadly, nobody is interested to read them.

i really dont like that both this genre and this site are are attracting veteran authors who dont understand what this genre is actually about, that then go and try to bomb every good litrpg and xianxia, just because the only part they like, the "plot" and characters, are not satisfactory. this people would even review bomb LMS if it was published today i feel.

But what does World of Cultivation also have that made them good? Great characters and world, story, and for World of Cultivation at least, well-paced progression.

They both also lean heavily into humor, which helps them a lot.

The thing with a good story with a 'system' is that the system and the world make sense together. The story isn't built around the system and the system isn't built around the story, but are made to fit each other.

You can make the greatest system in the world, but if the exploration of the system, the progression in which the characters move through it, and the ways people use the system aren't entertaining the entire novel falls apart. All the stories you mentioned had that.

Also, World of Cultivation didn't get popular because of its system, but because of its world. The exploration of the different factions and especially the main character and the mystery about his past and his humorous personality is what carried the story through its boring parts. 

I also like this genre a lot and have read every novel you mentioned here. I have, however, never read a novel with a great system and a bad story, because a bad story will automatically create a bad system by association.

i acknowledge that you do understand the our genre, and that what you say, if it was said in another discussion, i would agree.

but most of what you said as an answer to my points above i cant agree

a story has to be built around the system. all the stories i mentioned are like this. this dose not mean that the story is bad at all, just that the writers first created the system and then started to design a GOOD story that will make use of it. i have invested a lot of thinking in analyzing this stories and the genre.
stories that are not built around the system but built together with the system have a very rudimentary and not complex system, for example, almost all Korean manga stories that have a system.
Btw, all the stories i mentioned barely have a plot, and most of the plot is usually used as a vehicle in order to introduce system elements, or show how they interact with the world, and they dont have comedy as


Quote:Also, World of Cultivation didn't get popular because of its system, but because of its world. The exploration of the different factions and especially the main character and the mystery about his past and his humorous personality is what carried the story through its boring parts. 

one of my favorites stories ever, but the world itself without the system is far from interesting, what makes it so good is that its built around the system, and has so much of it and it dispense it so regularly and well...

comedy? its just a small side dish here.
characters? cardboard.
arc-plot? your kidding me, right? it only passable.

i cant guaranty you that if i wanted to read a good story, i would not be in royal road. i would read ender's game again, and then start the rest of the series.
i am here because the genre can offer me something that will spark my imagination even when i am not reading it. the illusion of living in a world with a system, and the more the story explorer different facets of the system the more interesting the story become, and the more my imagination runs wild.

a good system story is a story that i keep stopping in the middle just to imagine the stuff that is related to the system, or being in that world. i dont care about the characters themselves or the grand plot. at least not in the 20-50 first chapters.

I have also studied the genre a lot (kinda comes with actually writing a novel with a system) and I would love for you to mention a single story where the main focus is the system, because I have most certainly never read one. Because it isn't a story then, it is an excel-sheet or a Wikipedia page.


If you ask anyone what World of Cultivation is about, you will get the same answer 99/100 times. It is a story about someone who doesn't know himself, but just likes farming and get embroiled in a broader world, much to his own dismay. He eventually learns to strive in this world, takes agency of his own fate, and ascends to the top. The system is there at all times, supporting it, but it isn't the story. I can't even remember what those last god realms or whatever was called.

The Legendary Moonlight Sculptor is even worse when it comes to the system. In that novel, the "cool moment" takes precedent over having a consistent system. The story is fine with not always making sense, even according to its own rules, to make some awesome moments. I can say with 100% confidence that the system in that story is just there to give that awesome dopamine hit with every notification as he makes something cool.

Also... Arcane Emperor isn't built around the system. The easiest way to dismiss that the story isn't is how much focus it has on the main characters' romantic relationships with other characters. It also falls into the trap of wanting to give too many awesome things to the MC and having to find ways to limit him somehow. 

I honestly think you confuse a well-structured world and the system itself. A great system and a great world go hand in hand, as exploring the system allows for exploration of the world and the possibilities within. With every new piece of the world explored, a new facet of the system is also revealed. Some of these are done to explore a part of the system, but sometimes the system is adapted to fit into the world.


all the stories you mentioned in the last post are ones that built around a system.
i agree with your last paragraph, but think you misunderstand what i am trying to say: the story can be good wither it come first or second. the system in the story will be good only if its come first.
.in the stories you mentioned every single one of them was system focused, with the system build around it. what i am saying is what moves the story forward, are not the dynamics of the chapters, it is not the plot that moves forward, but events the author pace in order to show every time in a paced manner a new facet of the world or the system. for examples:

in the LMS every chapter has a purpose its trying to convey something. maybe its outside the game chapter, that show how weed is going as a person (ice sculpture restaurant chep.), or to show the play style of a different type of class, like trader, or a simple chapter about reunion with the geomichies, that is used to show how people actually using real sword skill do better in the game because of mechanics (weak points), then players who use auto attack. or the chapter he go to the church the first time, and the entire chapter is basically to show also that even if you locked into a class, there are still options to get stuff outside the class limits (like a license that let you equip class limited items, or being favored by the church let you do that also)

in world of cultivation, the story it self is generally as generic as all cultivation novels, but its focus on details and more realistic in people behavior make the story better . but i dont even remember much on it i, i can berly remember more then 2 names from that story. but i do remember every single power development, the "classes", and the many ways the author try to show the depth of the magic system (like how by saturating the space about a cultivator can discus him from the sky and wean him because of his sword art that focus on the sky. there was never a time, at least in the first 160 cheaters i read, that the story took presence over the system and i dare you to show me one example of this. the system was always consistent.

the arcane emperor was review bombed a lot because it really did not have good characters or plot. the MC, when not cultivation was as despicable just as much as a regular xianxia hero. the 2 female leads were cardbord and did berly do anything but be a harem. but the writing it self was good. but what really set it apart, was the system and the cultivation because they ware done well and were combined well and their affect on their world and on the charterers actions was noticeable.

a super hero comic is not fun if the powers are not fun. a combat fantasy is not fun if the combat not fun. legend of the galactic heroes would not be fun if the tactics and political maneuvers were not well designed by the author. enders game would not be fun if it was not for all technical details of combat and the games, and the social maneuvering.



all in all, i think you are more closer to understand the genre then 99% of the people on this forum, but you still need to understand:
people read it for the system and the empowerment feel that come from imagining being in that world with system. therefore, the story and characters take a back sit, because the reader is not interested in being frudo on a journey do destroy the ring, he is interested in cool and various ways he can be stronger, and more importantly, on HOW he can become stronger.
this genre is superheroes genre but for adults: instead of being strong, we want to EARN being strong. because in the real world, hard work is not going to bring you anywhere alone, the fantasy of the system is that working hard will get you permanent powers.

Without trying to sound condescending, I do believe I have a very solid grasp, likely above yours, of systems and their importance in stories simply by being an author who has a successful LitRPG on the site. I know how important the system is, but I also know that you need to justify all developments and explorations of the system with a competent story and good characters.

You also say that a good comic book story is one where the powers are interesting, but I would argue against this with one easy example: The original Watchmen. The powers in that are generally boring, instead, it is the commentary of the world that matters. Dr. Manhatten, the fan-favorite is pretty much just 'God' and no one else has any interesting powers. Even his powers are incredibly boring when it comes down to it. Yet the comic is often viewed as a masterpiece for its commentary on the genre, its themes and characters, and of course, its story.


I do fully agree that a LitRPG is not good if the LitRPG mechanics are bad, but if you don't have a good story you have no way of conveying how good your system is. This is why I originally said that making a good system is easy. The hard part is showing the reader how awesome your system is, and that is where the story and characters come in.

I also think that you make your own interpretation of what makes a LitRPG good into some kind of law. Let's take Azarinth Healer as an example... its system is rather barebones and simple, but I still really enjoy it. That novel is 100% not about the system itself, the system is just there to put numbers on things. Heck, there was a chapter with a joking title to remind people that it is still technically a LitRPG. Does the system not being front and center make Azarinth Healer worse? I would say no, and the fact that it is nearly always at the top of Popular This Week makes me think most agree.


first thing first, dont use ethos in an argument if you dont want to get personally attacked, because there is no way to avoid it for the one that argue against you. i am going to ignore your first paragraph because i dont want the debate to turn into an ugly fight. but if you want then come at me. lets both get baned form this site :p
therefore, please lets both stick to logos and pathos, preferably logos.


i am pretty certain that the root of our conflict is that "story" and "litrpg" each of us have different interpretation
first, i never meant that the system need to be at the front of story, rather, that the story is built around it.

azarinth healer, is another story that put the system at its core when it was built. the development of the MC power is what drives the story forward. notices how random encounters pop in the story a lot. the first meeting with the elves, the random stumbling into dungeons, or the necro-people-frinds. all of this encounters move are what move the plot forward, and not the characters decision, or the plot itself. (at least until she reach level 100, i didn't read past the chpt. of when she reach the guild of the 100+ people)

if you can show me an example from the 3 stories i mentioned, of when you think the system is put back sit to the story, i maybe able to more understand your line of thought (preferably more from the beginning of them, i haven't finished a single one (life make me halt a story, then i cant finish it cus it don't fill right to continue after i forgot a lot of little details :p ))

but again, what i say is the system need to be created first, story after that. and that dont mean the system is at the forefront, just that the system was created and the  writer had very deep thinking on it.
for example: i personally, when thinking up (regular) stories, i start with emotional moments (for example, the "we are overwatch" trailer, because its the hardest to create for me). then i create plot around it, to channel the flow of the story towards this moments, and after that i build the characters according to what kind of character would do the things that are needed to move the plot in a way that stay true to the character, and then i expend on them, and make their back stories, for the sake of having more details to the world and to the characters.
characters.
therefore, you can say my stories are built around the emotional moments, just like i say that i think litrpg need to be built around the system. but that dose not mean i dont invest a lot of time on the plot or characters or back story. maybe my story would be known on its amazing plot, but not much on the emotional moments  (to bad its so hard for me to write the stories i have...), but it dont change the fact that i designed the emotional moments first.
i hope that better explain my line of thinking.

I am just going to use my own story as an example as I of course know the thoughts behind that.


I wanted to write a story about a character's progression in strength. I like LitRPG's so I chose that as the medium to illustrate his progress. This why ethos in this situation matters... because I made a LitRPG, so when you tell me (as someone who hasn't written one) how a LitRPG has to be written, then I think I have the right to rebuke that merely on the grounds of being an author.

Now, I wanted to tell the story of a character that isn't just all about only hunting things down and killing them... I wanted a world where you could do a bit of everything. Due to that, I decided on splitting levels up into classes, professions, and race. I didn't shape what happened in the story about those three being split, they are split because of the kind of story I wanted to tell. I have countless ideas and story beats I want to hit, so the system is shaped around that.

We don't know why exactly why the stories in different LitRPG's are built how they are unless the author comes in and tells us themselves, but I do know how mine is made. My system is built around my story, and I have a LitRPG, so unless you don't recognize mine as a LitRPG then you are just... wrong.



i asked you to being an example to your argument form a story we both know, so we can develop the discussion, and instead you bring an example of a story only you know.

being an author don't make you an expert on litrpg, just like being a driver dont make you an expert on tank design, or even on car design.
i have designed close to 30 different systems.
you say that you have more experience then me in this. how many systems have you designed? just one? how much depth and complexity it has? lets see:

1000 pages but only 20-30 followers... you have more reviews then followers or favorites, not to mention a lot of 3 stars.
i estimate you have a lot of views cause the large number of pages. that would make me also check your story.
so that negate your argument that you have a successful story on the site. its just barely doing ok.

i skimmed your story a little, and if it was any other story i would drop it because of what i have seen regarding the system.
it feels like you are on of those authors that have a mindset of the system is game put on the real world, instead of real world with game like superpower
and from what i have seen regarding the system its not looking interesting at first glance,. just stats. and then the skills are to generic. instead of opening options in the imaginations, it closes them by confining the choices to what is presented. it dont create curiosity

and because i didn't find any system that will hook me to the story, i am left searching for other hooks (except the 1000 pages), which your story dont provide, except to someone how have never read the system-apocalypse genre or system-isekai

in summery, you only have experience in writing one system that is not very deep, in order to hold a story with no good hooks.

in summery of our entire and out world view on litrpg is way to different fundamentally to breach the gap.
you treat it like a real life rpg computer game about player choice, and i treat it like system fantasy of the exploration of the unknown (or something like that).
its best that we end our discussion here. there is nothing but toxicity down that road apparently.

Eh... I have 8k+ followers and writing is now my full-time job due to my Patreon. Also, no, you haven't made a single system yet, while I have written a LitRPG that people actually want to read. It may not be your cup of tea, but that doesn't make it a "bad" system, just one you don't like. Clearly, many others like it.


Also... I didn't say you couldn't or shouldn't write a LitRPG with everything revolving around the system. I said that it isn't the only way. To use your driver metaphor, then it would be like me saying that you can have the steering wheel on either the left or the right side, while you insist it can only be on the left side because that is how cars supposed to be designed in your mind.

Re: wil anyone be intrested to read a colection of "level-up" story ideas?

#25

Zogarth Wrote:
Ramingo Wrote: LMS has a good system?  peoconfused

I would say it has a system that works for the story. It is meant to be flexible and to give 'awesome moments' and give those dopamine hits. But if you look at it as an actually designed VRMMO game it would be shit.

Honestly, almost all novels where people play games, or get stuck in them, have terribly designed games. From bad novels like SAO to good ones like The King's Avatar.

Re: wil anyone be intrested to read a colection of "level-up" story ideas?

#26

Ramingo Wrote:
Zogarth Wrote:
Ramingo Wrote: LMS has a good system?  peoconfused

I would say it has a system that works for the story. It is meant to be flexible and to give 'awesome moments' and give those dopamine hits. But if you look at it as an actually designed VRMMO game it would be shit.

Honestly, almost all novels where people play games, or get stuck in them, have terribly designed games. From bad novels like SAO to good ones like The King's Avatar.

True, no one would play it as a "game" but maybe more like a real-life sim for fun. But the balancing is just so off in all the games. Then again, they are often inspired by japanese grinding MMO's which are pay-to-win (another thing that is in half these novels), so I guess it makes sense.