Re: Boo hoo, harem bad

#41
If it were human nature to create harems then explain to me why women try to find partners that do not already have someone. were it human nature there would be a common culture throughout the world where women would actively look for men with multiple partners in order to join their harem.

if it were human nature then it should not need to have prerequisite to come about. Sure some vain and greedy people with a lot of power and money would make a harem in the past, but I am sure you can find that in most of those situation the ones being forced into the harem would hate it.

so if you are trying to tell us that harems are a part of human nature, then get us on the same page here and tell us what you think human nature is.

Re: Boo hoo, harem bad

#42
Wow. You do realize that a huge turn-on for many women is a man with a wedding ring, right? It proves he is worth being with, because another woman has judged him thus.

I never said it was something to be desired, and I specifically said it was not sustainable. However, it is as clear as day that it does in fact almost always happen when the circumstances allow for it.

Re: Boo hoo, harem bad

#43
Do you think a man wears a wedding ring to show that he is open to relationships or something? Said woman may want that man, but most of the women who find that a turn-on probably do not want the other woman in the picture.

you keep coming up with anecdotes and examples as to why harems occur(excluding the example just above as it is definitely not about harems) but where is the actual facts behind it, or the logic behind it? sure a massive harem is not sustainable but a wealthy man could easily support 4 or 5 women.

Re: Boo hoo, harem bad

#44
In our society the limiting factor is social pressure. This is the reason why most people just have mistresses and "side-pieces" instead of a harem. And, taken in that context, a harem may actually be less harmful to everybody involved.

Just to reiterate, I am NOT advocating for that lifestyle. Just like I am not advocating for heavy drug use. I personally don't indulge in either. However, I am not going to fool myself into believing these things are not part of human nature.

Re: Boo hoo, harem bad

#45
I am saying that if it were human nature to make harems, then why is it illegal in the majority of countries around the world? if it were human nature then would it not be facilitated in our societies?

most people do not have mistresses, and if they do, please tell me where you have found this statistic of more than 50% of marriages having a mistress or "side-piece"

I am not saying harems don't exist, I am saying they are the exception and not the norm.

I am not going to debate past this because I don't think your stance will change at all.

Re: Boo hoo, harem bad

#51

Half Wrote: A debate is when you stake out a side and go at it with somebody staking out the other side. Believing everything you say is not a prerequisite. Winning is the point.

Fine, then. Cheating is not the result of society saying 'no harem'. If that was the case, couples wouldn't split up after the victim learning of the cheater's infidelity. It's somebody deciding to break the trust built between them and their partner.

Re: Boo hoo, harem bad

#52
Yes, but if the relationship was built on the premise of multiple partners in the first place there would be no breach of trust. And yes, our society (or at least in the USA) has said no to harems, so that is not a valid official marriage option. Who can say for sure if it wouldn't be a better choice to curb the out of control cheating.

I think everybody can agree that extramarital affairs are more damaging than a consensual polyamorous relationship. That's a harem.

I think it would likely be revealing to see the cheating statistics for societies that allow polygamy vs. societies that do not.

Re: Boo hoo, harem bad

#55
(Sorry, I know these are off topic.)
Nautilus Wrote: were it human nature there would be a common culture throughout the world

Is human nature the prevailing culture or just a trait found in multiple humans?

Nautilus Wrote: I am saying that if it were human nature to make harems, then why is it illegal in the majority of countries around the world? if it were human nature then would it not be facilitated in our societies?

Part of me is wondering if this stems from men wanting certainty of paternity? Hence why, historically, it was more acceptable for men to have their extramarital affairs than women.

Re: Boo hoo, harem bad

#56

Ok on a serious note:

Harems are a lot different from polyamory.

In history the powerful people had harems. why ?  because they had power. they had enough power they could abuse others. I am 100 % sure there was minimum amount of " love" in those harems. so what was the point of those harems ? from wikipedia : Ashoka, the emperor of the Mauryan Dynasty in India, kept a harem of around 500 women. Once when a few of the women insulted him, he had all of them burnt to death. (so much love)
  • the person in power (usually a man) was a lustful person.
  • there was political aspect ( literally selling daughters for some power, so much love involved wow), 
  • harem members fought each other not for love, but for power.
  • need of heirs.
So lets avoid romanticizing harems and again, theres a difference between a harem and polyamory/group marriage etc.



Re: Boo hoo, harem bad

#57

BmustG Wrote: So lets avoid romanticizing harems and again, theres a difference between a harem and polyamory/group marriage etc.

Of course you are correct. But let's be clear, and focus on writing stories, and not on Social Justice Agendas. 


The Trope is called The Harem Trope. It is not called The Polyamory/Group Marriage Etc. Trope

😁

Re: Boo hoo, harem bad

#58
From my point of view, human nature is the sum total of human behavior from the beginning of history until today. I know some people hold to the idealistic notion that we are "civilized" now and not subject to the same foibles as our forbearers. However, I would submit that's nothing but a shoddy cardboard cutout of an illusion, which falls apart at the slightest disruption of our modern creature comforts.

I see humans as largely animalistic at our core. And just like animals, we have many things that we do by instinct. The more one knows about the natural social structures in the animal kingdom, the more one sees how similar dynamics often play out in our supposedly civilized modern culture.

So I think those things, meaning the bits we do at a nearly instinctual level, are the primary things that comprise human nature.

Right now, interesting conversations are going on about how our minds really work. One interpretation is that we are not primarily logical beings at all. Rather we are driven by our emotional/animalistic urges, and the rational part of our brain is only there to find and create justifications for our behavior and choices. This view is particularly prominent amongst the New Atheist movement, where human beings are seen as meat robots. In that worldview, we are just executing our biological programming (DNA), and free will/thought is an illusion. I certainly wouldn't go that far, but I do think that nature and nurture are likely both responsible for our behavior in equal measure.

Obviously, Social Constructionists (people who believe everything is a social construct) think that only nurture matters. So if you can control every aspect of a person's environment, you end up with an ideal person. However, I think that worldview simultaneously underestimates and overestimates what a human being is capable of. Human nature is not so easily contained or neutralized.

Re: Boo hoo, harem bad

#59

ArDeeBurger Wrote:
BmustG Wrote: So lets avoid romanticizing harems and again, theres a difference between a harem and polyamory/group marriage etc.

Of course you are correct. But let's be clear, and focus on writing stories, and not on Social Justice Agendas. 


The Trope is called The Harem Trope. It is not called The Polyamory/Group Marriage Etc. Trope

😁



 i was saying that regarding the earlier discussion about human nature, history and stuff.

although that did give me and idea : we should replace harem trope with poly trope .
YOU love several people and YOU love several people. EVERYONE loves several people.
:D

Re: Boo hoo, harem bad

#60
I'm not quite sure what you're arguing about anymore. So I'll just give my two cents about 'human nature' in relation to harems.
Humans tend to flock to people with power as potential partners. However 'power' is defined in a specific cultural context. Or phrased differently: Power is attractive. (So are individuals who have 'already proven' that they are a worthwhile potential mate through demonstrating that they can take care of other partners, btw.)
So... from an evolutionary perspective, successful and/or powerful individuals always had a pretty large choice of potential mates.
Now, what did they do once they became powerful enough that they didn't have to choose just one of them anymore, but possessed the means to have more than one of them? (through coercion or mutual agreement) Harems, concubines, multiple wives, etc.
Now this, of course, isn't sustainable. Not necessarily on the individual level of the respective 'relationships' (which still is unlikely in most cases) but on a societal level. When birthrates are somewhere in the ballpark of 50/50 and there isn't a case of one gender dying disproportionally more often than the other, i.e. constant armed conflicts, then you'll end up with many, many people with no mate at all. Which breeds unhappiness and resentment. Then take into account all the potential unhappiness and resentment sources for the actual members of such a relationship as well and it should be apparent why humans started to lean towards monogamy as the ideal.
Besides it being way easier to maintain a successful relationship with only one person at a time. ^^

To say that having multiple partners would somehow go 'against human nature' is simply not true, though. 
It's not some kind of 'rare perversion of powerful deviants'. 
How many people have fantasies of threesomes for example? It's not exactly rare. It's the problems that come with arrangements like this that keep them from being more common.

Nevertheless, relationships as they are portrayed in more than 90% (at least in my experience) of the 'harem genre', are very much unrealistic and wish-fulfilment fantasies and in no way depict actual 'human nature', imo.