Re: The Science Behind Magic

#1
How does sciences apply to magic?

example: many fantasy stories that use magic have something like passive mana regen. Most of the time the explanation we get is that the soul and living matter creates/produce/etc it. This also applies to mana concentration in the area, the more it is the more you "regen" which might imply that mana follows eith the concentration gradient.


dogs>mods

Re: The Science Behind Magic

#2
Its preety much expected that a magic system be eh, a system, have some mechanics and rules.In short be regimented. This is a plot aid, that helps solve the superman /no kryptonite problem. However that doesn't make it science.  Check with your teachers or a good rudimentary textbook for an explanation. Take it as a matter of definition. There are tested processes that root in the natural world and are quantified, then there is magic which by definition is not. Also magic and unknown are different words and mean different things.

Re: The Science Behind Magic

#3
I always thought that the science behind the magic is what you invent it to be. If you want the source to be soul-produced mana, so be it. Is it is drained from a parallel dimension - also good. Are demons/spirits its source? Do you need special rituals to invoke it? Does it work by writing runes on a piece of dragon skin? The possibilities are endless. The closest you get to science would be trough the rules of your magic universe, the logic behind the actions. Without logic and limitations, your magic system is just a crutch, a MacGuffin that can solve any problem. 

My advice - look at some "real-world" magic systems for inspiration. There is sympathetic magic like voodoo, kabbalah, shamanism, the whole eastern onmyoudo stuff, astrology. You can use them as a guide and build on. I find stories that are just shoving mana in your face all the time a bit worn out and increasingly boring.   

Re: The Science Behind Magic

#5

Oskatat Wrote:
Ariana Wrote: stories that are just shoving mama in your face



peopanic
wrong site for that
peogiggle

Alas... I might just have angered all Sorcerers Supreme! 
And dang, @Oskatat, why don't you just say I had a huge typo!?   peopanic peodead
But as we are on the topic of mana, I just remembered something (and this is a true story). A few years ago, I visited a church in an old German town. There was this beautiful glass window, showing mana coming down from the Heavens. And it was depicted as pretzels! Now you have it, guys! This is the answer to your scientific question! MANA IS PRETZELS!!! 

P.S: If you don't believe me, look at this: https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-WUJVq4QgDvA/Vs_GWvgwV5I/AAAAAAAAFyM/fqdoy3e3RqA/s1600/DSC09691.JPG

Re: The Science Behind Magic

#6
In my story the sorcerers using two sources of energy when spell casting: their own body and the direct environment. That means if they used too much magic on their own, they need to eat and rest, and if they exhaust themselves they pass out or worse, the same thing like when they are tired of running, working out, etc. The more you use your energy the more spent you will be. There is no mana or mystical regeneration, only what a human being already has. 
Now the environment is a little tricky. They usually use the warmth in the air, kind of tapping into the thermal energy around,  but the more skilled ones are capable of using other sources. In my manuscript, someone uses the electric system via an outlet at some point, but there is a catch: take more energy than your body capable of handling and you end up dead.
So in my opinion the more transparent the system the better, and magic is perfectly fits in even in modern days with smartphones and self-driving cars.

Re: The Science Behind Magic

#7

Ariana Wrote: And dang, @Oskatat, why don't you just say I had a huge typo!?   peopanic peodead
....
MANA IS PRETZELS!!!

because funny

I believe that is spelled Manna
It would make for an interesting change, where mana only regenerates by eating specific things. Kind of reminds me of mistborn, where it's copper and iron and such

Re: The Science Behind Magic

#9
Manna with two n is a type of food.
Mana with one n is a form of power.


While you can give even things inspired by classic magical aspects some scientific aspects, the second most prominent and hardest to hide aspect of magic is usually its dependency on intend. When it matters what you intend or what other intend for it to work, then any chance to make it science like is lost. (Though readers might still safe it with suspension of disbelief. Having telepathy is antithetical to science, but can still happen in science fiction).
The most prominent aspect is of course simply wish-fulfilment. Though that is not something making is impossible to have a fictual science having it by pure chance (a common trope for example in science fiction stories is having the magic of faster than light travel/communication).

Re: The Science Behind Magic

#10

whoever Wrote: Manna with two n is a type of food.
Mana with one n is a form of power.

Yep. I know. BUT my lazy attempt at a pun was made possible by Wikipedia:



Quote:Manna (Hebrewמָן‎ mānGreekμάνναArabicاَلْمَنُّ‎), sometimes or archaically spelled mana is, according to the Bible, an edible substance which God provided for the Israelites during their travels in the desert during the 40-year period following the Exodus and prior to the conquest of Canaan

Which teaches us to never 100% believe good old Wiki.

Re: The Science Behind Magic

#11
I am a physics undergrad and I can't help myself at times. I always have to think my systems down to the most minute details, because otherwise I end up not sleeping at night because I think of exploits that could be used or broken mechanics.
In short? Magic is a broken mechanic per se, when paired with real world physics.
Example: you have a lightning spell. A classic looking one, one that can produce thick and flashy lightning. Well, why not use it as an energy source for a much more efficient electric weapon? What's the joule per mana conversion?
Example 2: fireball. Can we use it to heat water up, spin a turbine and make electricity? If yes, how much mana per joule again?
Example 3: heal wounds. Can we use it to manipulate genes? Does it speed up cancer as well? How does it know what a wound is and what isn't?
Example 4: Analysis magic. Where does the info come from? Are we violating entropy? Is mana somewhat capable of storing data? How does it get interpreted?
Overall, magic as seen classically always requires some sort of sentient super entity in order to work. Otherwise, it would be stupid to assume that ooga booga spells go boom and they actually work. I dare you to simulate fluid mechanics even with a supercomputer, let alone with your puny mind while casting maaaaagic.
Join the dark side of the simulation theory. And all will make sense. Magic? Nah, just cheat codes for the matrix.

Re: The Science Behind Magic

#12
Also, I should not that the whole magic ignores physics argument is invalid.
Just because magic does, it does not mean that the rest of the world does as well. So, if your magic interacts with a physical system, it inevitably affects stuff that is regulated by physics, and thus cannot ignore physics. If I can generate power, reverse entropy and do all that stuff that magic usually does, going from there to infinite power is just a small step

Re: The Science Behind Magic

#13
I don't want to get too deep into it here since it is a theme that gets unraveled in my story. I will just say that IMO it makes the most sense if physics is an emergent property of mana. Meaning, magic doesn't break physics, mana is the source of physics as we know them and therefore the application of mana (as magic) can reshape reality as if the laws of physics do not exist (because they don't).

That implies that we do not live in a closed system if magic is real. Mana is external to nature as we know it -- thus "supernatural".

Re: The Science Behind Magic

#14

Half Wrote: I don't want to get too deep into it here since it is a theme that gets unraveled in my story. I will just say that IMO it makes the most sense if physics is an emergent property of mana. Meaning, magic doesn't break physics, mana is the source of physics as we know them and therefore the application of mana (as magic) can reshape reality as if the laws of physics do not exist (because they don't).

That implies that we do not live in a closed system if magic is real. Mana is external to nature as we know it -- thus "supernatural".

I wanted to say stuff like "hold my Landau-Lifshitz" but I don't think I will actually waste too much time discussing magic. It's not supposed to be analyzed using science, as it is magic after all. Also, I have science videos to make first.

Re: The Science Behind Magic

#15
Anyway science isn't a thing, its a process.  As long as the inventions adhere to that process, and link to the physical world, you can speculate to your hearts content. It's "In the Realm".  Bibity bobity boo, well that's something else. Its magic. It does not purport to having a basis in the real. It's Supposed to be  "Magical".  There's nothing wrong with that, either, but the results are treated differently and seen differently. There is no need for an apologia, because its Magic.

However, most publishers want there magic to be evoked in a systematic manner for the reasons noted before..

Re: The Science Behind Magic

#16
In of itself magic is not science. About the only real similarity between them is that a well crafted magic system and science have a set of rules or laws that cannot be broken. Beyond that, the only real constraint on a magic system is up to the author whereas science had distinct laws which cannot be broken. Want to levitate something? With magic that's no problem. With science you'd need some sort of device because you can't just change the law of gravity. If you want to use a scientific framework to develop a magic system that's great, but it doesn't make magic science. If anything, magic is essentially the ability to change scientific laws. 

Re: The Science Behind Magic

#17
Magic is just unexplained science. 

Back in the 1500s if you fired a pistol, people would liken the loud sound to witchcraft and sorcery. Same logic typically applies here.

The explanations for magic in stories are typically pseudoscience to give it all some realism, but beyond that? Most of it is kept vague and left to the imagination.

Because a guy reading a fantasy story with magic and consciously looking for the smallest flaws in the system to blow out of proportion, probably shouldn’t be reading magic stories in the first place.

Like Bakugou from MHA for example. He makes explosions with his sweat, and you get no further explanation past that. 

If you go “how come he isn’t blowing apart his flesh and bone arms from those massive explosions?” Instead of “WOW, dude can blow shit up! Cool!” then you shouldn’t be reading MHA

Re: The Science Behind Magic

#18
"Magic is just unexplained science."

No Yeah No. The Exposition of a principle of science can seem "Magical", like flicking a Zippo in front of an Aztec Chieftain from some lost world might, but not to the maker of the Zippo. Science fiction expects that there is some connection to natural principles either known or yet to be discovered, at work. Science fictions make this clear. Magic does not. Magic is the abrogation of natural laws and processes, by definition.   You are either writing about amazing things yet to be discovered or you are basically writing "Poof! Dere it is!" in so many words and with (hopefully) some sort of restrictive logic - which is magical.  Most authors want the reader to know which sort of fiction they are writing.  Hard  or soft, I don't think writing closet SF nets you anything in terms of meeting the expectations of the appropriate fan base. If its some kind of crossover, just note that.

Re: The Science Behind Magic

#20

FAHyatt Wrote: "Magic is just unexplained science."

No Yeah No. The Exposition of a principle of science can seem "Magical", like flicking a Zippo in front of an Aztec Chieftain from some lost world might, but not to the maker of the Zippo. Science fiction expects that there is some connection to natural principles either known or yet to be discovered, at work. Science fictions make this clear. Magic does not. Magic is the abrogation of natural laws and processes, by definition.   You are either writing about amazing things yet to be discovered or you are basically writing "Poof! Dere it is!" in so many words and with (hopefully) some sort of restrictive logic - which is magical.  Most authors want the reader to know which sort of fiction they are writing.  Hard  or soft, I don't think writing closet SF nets you anything in terms of meeting the expectations of the appropriate fan base. If its some kind of crossover, just note that.

Magic literally was coined, like, factually coined, to give concept to the unexplainable.


It’s why a few thousand years ago you’d call the ability to make a flamethrower from air freshener and a lighter magic, but not today.

Clarke’s 3 laws defines this pretty well, actually. 

“Magic” is called “Magic” because you don’t understand it. Once you understand it, it’s not magic. 

“Sorcery to the ignorant; science to the learned”

Science is always there. Magic is only there until the science is found out.