Re: Summoned Hero's and Reincarnated people stories shouldn't be handled by beginners.

#1
I previously made a post similar to this, but I don't feel like I backed up my statements enough and my end goal for what I said was blurry hopefully I can elaborate on it further without it devolving into ranting. (The summoned hero's make no sense thread.)

This trope/genre whatever you want to call it has been around for a while and is reasonably popular and like all tropes experience growth and change. A couple of examples of this is the summoners not being so benevolent and wanting to use the hero for personal gain, or a classroom getting summoned instead of just one person(Due to the nature of the classroom setting it usually defaults to the summoners not being too nice and kicking out the mc for being weak.) I think that this genre could be great and in some cases it is good but many authors, in my opinion, think of it as an easy starting point to write books and I fundamentally disagree with that. I wholeheartedly think this genre should not be attempted by beginners due to the various hurdles you would need to cross for the story to be considered truly outstanding. The most obvious factor is the fact that they need to create an entirely new world to be the setting of their new book, this is a hurdle that many seem to underestimate and the quality of the story suffers for it 

The fact of the matter is beginner authors try to prop up the tropes they use by using more tropes. For example, A reincarnated person finds himself in a new world and while growing up none of his morals are questioned(or he abandons them entirely and becomes a murder machine (looking at you wuxia.)) and he has no sense of danger despite growing up in a peaceful world so he decides to become an adventurer so he set off to a city. Oh no! he doesn't have an identification card but that doesn't matter since they just make him pay a fee and go on. So where does he go to get his identification card? A government office or something similar? Nope, he goes to an adventure guild who for some reason offers such services with no background checks at all. (Not to mention all stories have the same ranking system). The mc then proceeds to go on adventures lording over people with his superior powers and morals with no challenge whatsoever and collecting a cookie-cutter harem along the way.

I'm not saying any of these tropes are inherently bad but the biggest flaw beginners have is they don't add anything to the story besides these tropes. To put it harshly if you aren't confident in your ability to create a realistic world from scratch then you should try easier things first. I have a lot more to say but I'll probably wait to see the replies before I write anymore.

Re: Summoned Hero's and Reincarnated people stories shouldn't be handled by beginners.

#2
I probably would just bypass reading anything that ho hum and look for something interesting to read that could hold my attention. I suppose if you are going to learn, and start somewhere, this is as good a place as any, so cant go with the "just don't" crowd. But being a public kiosk, then comes the vetting, so be prepared to learn a few things. A writing circle might be a better beginning. I don't feel the reinvention of a trope to be a bad thing. reinvent away.

Re: Summoned Hero's and Reincarnated people stories shouldn't be handled by beginners.

#3
I know I sometimes say things like 'writers shouldn't do' something, though I try not to. It is up to each and every writer out there to stumble along their own path. It's up to me to simply not read the bad results. It's not up to me to tell people what they should or should not write. At most I can explain my experience so they can learn from it.

I'm working towards that ideal, ok

Re: Summoned Hero's and Reincarnated people stories shouldn't be handled by beginners.

#4
I'm going to have to disagree pretty strongly here.

The issues you listed aren't due to writer's lack of experience, they are due to isekai being an overexposed genre that too many people see as an easy trend to cash in on, resulting in market saturation.

Fantasy and sci-fi basically all require some level of worldbuilding and I certainly would not consider them more advanced genres to write (my 2 cents is that high quality comedy is the hardest type of story to write). Most isekai worlds are pretty much standard JRPG settings with the serial numbers filed off and this is often done because it is both easy, popular and familiar to the audience. The appeal of these kinds of fantasies isn't to show off worldbuilding, so it is usually serviceable enough when it is not exactly what the audience wants.

Ironically the isekai setup actually has an easy built in aid for a writer to explain the fantasy world as the isekai-ed character is as new to the place as the reader or nearly so and naturally will have to learn about it one way or another- letting the audience do so by proxy. So if you do want to make worldbuilding a big part of your story isekai isn't a bad set-up to go for. (Personally I consider overfixation on worldbuilding a detriment to most writers, and I've gotten a lot of praise for my own so I can say this with some certainty)

Frankly, there is nothing wrong with a trope-filled story. The power-fantasy isekai aren't ground-breaking or anything but neither is the romance genre as a whole and look at how much of the reading market that makes up. Nobody is ever going to make an outstanding story of any type without practice regardless of genre of set-up and even if you never do remember that salted peanuts sell more than caviar anyway (Mickey Spillane reference there).

So I would encourage any beginners to try their hand at isekai if they like the idea, want to have some fun, want to practice their craft, or just plain want to. 

Water isn't going to flow unless the tap is on, you're not going to improve your writing without actually writing. 

Re: Summoned Hero's and Reincarnated people stories shouldn't be handled by beginners.

#5
+1 with Jon Wander's comment. I also strongly disagree with OP and I'd go as far as actively recommending Isekai style stories to beginners. Isekai stories make writing high fantasy much easier because it allows you to use modern slang, make references to our world, use modern world descriptors and sayings, include modern attitudes and perspectives, etc etc. Isekai is very good at making high fantasy more approachable for a beginner author because you don't have to limit yourself to medieval thinking and knowledge and culture quite as much and can lean more on what you are familiar with, our world. I actually believe this ease of use is partially why they are so popular to write.

Re: Summoned Hero's and Reincarnated people stories shouldn't be handled by beginners.

#6
It's because they're such gimmicky concepts that beginners can work with them.  I've found that the more gimmicky a novel is, the easier it is for me to ignore flaws.  

Take the series "My House of Horrors" on webnovel.  Parts are well written, but for the most part, its a mess.  However, I can completely ignore those parts and keep reading because the weirdness of the idea is just so interesting.  

Rather, I think the truth is that more generic and longer fictions should be kept away from beginners. And as more summoned hero fictions get released, the less novelty the concept has and the more creative the authors have to get to make the next series addictive.  

I will say that summoned to another world and etc are becoming a lot more generic as of late.  The idea by itself isn't enough anymore.  Authors need to start experimenting with new gimmicks.  

Re: Summoned Hero's and Reincarnated people stories shouldn't be handled by beginners.

#7
Let me put it from my own perspective. For me, a fantasy world, something I haven't seen, is far easier to create than set stories in the real world. Simply because readers also haven't seen that world, so even if there are some discrepancies here and there, they would most likely be able to fill it up using their own imagination. On the other hand, the real world, which is already pretty much established, is much more unforgiving towards those discrepancies. if you make mistakes, they will be noticed a lot more...

In fact, as a discovery writer, I don't create worlds, characters or plots. I only have a vague idea about the story and I mostly make it up as I go. If I make a mistake, well, it's a little hard to do if it's a serialized story, but if it isn't, I can most likely solve most of them during the editing phase...


GriefTG Wrote: I wholeheartedly think this genre should not be attempted by beginners due to the various hurdles you would need to cross for the story to be considered truly outstanding. The most obvious factor is the fact that they need to create an entirely new world to be the setting of their new book, this is a hurdle that many seem to underestimate and the quality of the story suffers for it

Yes, this kind of thinking is dangerous and in a way, amateurish. There are no grounds that are too much for a beginner to start out on, no idea is too outstanding and no hurdles difficult to cross. The reason is simple. A beginner shouldn't worry so much about those things. If they start worrying about how to make their story "outstanding", they would never write it, because beginners don't write outstanding stories in the first place. The quality of their story doesn't matter as much as the quality of their writing. As long as they write and write and gain experience along the way, the quality of their story would improve naturally...

Brandon Sanderson spent 10 whole years writing before he was able to publish his first book. And I'm willing to bet the first-ever book he wrote was anything but outstanding...

GriefTG Wrote: The fact of the matter is beginner authors try to prop up the tropes they use by using more tropes.
I don't think there are many stories that are free of tropes in today's world. Everything is a trope since most ideas have been explored to some extent. Yes, it takes a skilled author to present those tropes in an interesting way, but beginners, as I said, shouldn't worry about that...
GriefTG Wrote: To put it harshly if you aren't confident in your ability to create a realistic world from scratch then you should try easier things first. I have a lot more to say but I'll probably wait to see the replies before I write anymore.

Why should a beginner worry about creating a realistic world in the first place? Even established authors rarely do that. There are many author wannabes who begin by trying to create the perfect world and never manage to write the damn story. JJR Tolkien spent 20 years creating his world, but only managed to write 4 to 5 stories in his lifetime...

Re: Summoned Hero's and Reincarnated people stories shouldn't be handled by beginners.

#8
 
GriefTG Wrote: To put it harshly if you aren't confident in your ability to create a realistic world from scratch then you should try easier things first. I have a lot more to say but I'll probably wait to see the replies before I write anymore.


Why should a beginner worry about creating a realistic world in the first place? Even established authors rarely do that. There are many author wannabes who begin by trying to create the perfect world and never manage to write the damn story. JJR Tolkien spent 20 years creating his world, but only managed to write 4 to 5 stories in his lifetime...




The advantage of creating a sufficiently realistic world (whether magical or not) is actually very simple: it allows to create a coherent, simple and above all solid world.

The richness and depth can easily come from an imagined world. On the other hand, the opposite is true ... will be much more difficult (not to say impossible).

It also helps to create a coherence strong enough for the reader to believe in the world he or she is discovering, to understand how it works and to get emotionally involved with it.

JRR Tolkien spent a lot of time creating his world? Yes he did. But if you want to write a story in a world that feels real and breathes life, you need to know a lot more than your reader needs to know to understand it. (he will only see the tip of the iceberg).

This is the price to pay.

Besides, for the fact that stories of invoked or reincarnated heroes should not be managed by beginners: my answer is that we do what we want.

I'm writing my first story and my subject hits hard in these tropes to create the main scenario. And in fact, it's not really more difficult than the others.

The only apparent disadvantage is that the genre makes errors of realism in social relationships or in the psychology of the characters so highly visible, that they are almost like attacks on the critical mind of the reader. (It is therefore very easy to write badly about them, and authors who write about this genre are usually not very familiar with psychology, hence the bad reputation of the genre on this particular aspect).

These particular points are usually not as pronounced in most other genres (they can be, but it's rarer), so they are real gullibility killers and can easily make your readers stop reading your novel immediately.

Re: Summoned Hero's and Reincarnated people stories shouldn't be handled by beginners.

#9

Camille Wrote:
Je Wrote:
ChagrinTG Wrote: Pour le dire durement, si vous n'êtes pas sûr de votre capacité à créer un monde réaliste à partir de zéro, vous devriez d'abord essayer des choses plus faciles. J'ai beaucoup plus à dire mais j'attendrai probablement de voir les réponses avant d'écrire davantage.

Pourquoi un débutant devrait-il s'inquiéter de créer un monde réaliste en premier lieu? Même les auteurs établis font rarement cela. Il y a beaucoup d'auteurs en herbe qui commencent par essayer de créer le monde parfait et ne parviennent jamais à écrire cette foutue histoire. JJR Tolkien a passé 20 ans à créer son monde, mais n'a réussi à écrire que 4 à 5 histoires au cours de sa vie ...


L'avantage de créer un monde suffisamment réaliste (qu'il soit magique ou non) est en fait très simple: cela permet de créer un monde cohérent, simple et surtout solide.

La richesse et la profondeur peuvent facilement provenir d'un monde imaginé. Le contraire, par contre ... sera beaucoup plus difficile (pour ne pas dire impossible).

Cela permet également de créer une cohérence suffisamment forte pour que le lecteur croie au monde qu'il ou elle découvre, comprend son fonctionnement et s'implique émotionnellement avec lui.

JRR Tolkien a passé beaucoup de temps à créer son monde? Oui il l'a fait. Mais si vous voulez écrire une histoire dans un monde qui semble réel et qui respire la vie, vous devez en savoir beaucoup plus que votre lecteur n'a besoin de savoir pour le comprendre. (il ne verra que la pointe de l'iceberg).

C'est le prix à payer.

I do understand the advantage of creating a believable world, but that isn't the point I'm arguing. It's about what people think beginners should or shouldn't do. In my opinion, there isn't anything a beginner shouldn't try while writing, but they shouldn't worry too much about it and just write. If they want to create a realistic world and can, then sure, but if they want to write the story, then it's also true that trying to create a wholly functional realistic world(which is no easy task) is kinda putting cart before the horse...

As long as the world is workable, even if it isn't wholly realistic, there shouldn't be a problem writing the story. after all, as you said, the readers would only see the tip of the iceberg. And as I said in my post, if there are any discrepancies, you can always fix them during the editing phase...

And having some psychological and social knowledge is always useful if you intend to create characters that show believable behaviour. That isn't only a matter of the summoned hero trope. But unless you're experienced and learned in those fields, for an ordinary writer, it takes time and a lot of observation to get those right. And as I said, if beginners worry too much about those things and want to get the perfect result, they would never write a story. After all, there are no perfect results...

(Had to spend some time in the French to English translation of the google translate. Although I think French is a beautiful language I would rather appreciate keeping the conversations in English. It may not be my native language, but I and most other people can understand it better)

Re: Summoned Hero's and Reincarnated people stories shouldn't be handled by beginners.

#10
Quote:I Don't Bite... wrote

......


I wholeheartedly agree.

I may rant about things I don't like and about things that are poorly done, but there has never been a time where I have told someone 'you shouldn't write this' based only on their skill. This is unnecessary gatekeeping, setting unreasonably high standards for newcomers to writing. Let them mess it up, be sure to give constructive feedback and watch them improve over time. Keep in mind the people you're likely telling to 'stop writing this' are younger writers. Maybe you were a teen-genius, I certainly wasn't. Back then I really didn't need people telling me I wasn't good enough for something, what I would have liked was people telling me 'nice try, here is how you can do it better'.

If you could read on this site with that in mind, I'm sure it would improve the experience of everyone.

Re: Summoned Hero's and Reincarnated people stories shouldn't be handled by beginners.

#12

I disagree, but for reasons other than what has been said already.


To me, it seems like these genres are good to start with for amateur writers because the genre tropes are already doing a lot of the writing for you. There's a clear beginning and progression with the stories, and the differences usually come down to execution. Furthermore, with fantasy worlds you can get away with just telling the reader the details of the world that are relevant to the plot. You don't need to have a fully fleshed out world to have a decent isekai story.

Following that line of thought, I would say that a hard genre for a beginner writer to pull off would be historical fiction. You have to get every single detail right, which takes a lot of time and research. If your characters travel between two real locations in an amount of time that is simply impossible, for example, a reader who is familiar with the locations and the time period will tear you apart.

That said, I don't think any writer should see a genre as off limits. Write the genre that you're most passionate about, but do so with the knowledge of what makes a novel in that genre good, and what kind of work that will take.


Camille Wrote:  
GriefTG Wrote: To put it harshly if you aren't confident in your ability to create a realistic world from scratch then you should try easier things first. I have a lot more to say but I'll probably wait to see the replies before I write anymore.


There are many author wannabes who begin by trying to create the perfect world and never manage to write the damn story. JJR Tolkien spent 20 years creating his world, but only managed to write 4 to 5 stories in his lifetime...
To be fair to Tolkien, he did write a bunch of stories that weren't brought to a publishable state until after his death. He was also more of a linguist and academic than he was a novelist