Re: Hero's summoned to another world make no sense.

#1
Being transported to another world to serve as a hero and save the world is an established trope to the point of parody. Yet something struck me and I never realized it bothered me until now. Let me set the stage for you, suddenly you appear before a god and they tell you they want you to serve as a hero to defeat some great evil and they say they will give you great power to accomplish this act. Naturally, as all poorly developed protagonists, you accept without questioning anything and get giving some random cookie-cutter powers that make you unbeatable but what are you? A magician capable of summoning meteors? A druid fighting corruption with the power of nature? No you are something much stupider You are simply a swordsman.

Granted most stories either give them some magical ability or make is physical stats out of this world but I'm going to utter one word that will totally break all logic in those previously established worlds... Paladin. 

Think about it the hero is given power by the goddess/god to fight evil and that is the literal definition of a paladin yet for some reason the hero never is one. This just goes to show how uncreative and cookie-cutter most isekai's are, and I''m quite curious about how many other tropes are overlooked in this capacity if you know of any feel free to comment them.

Re: Hero's summoned to another world make no sense.

#2
Well, that is why the good ones don't copy the trope and use it with more original and interesting ways. I think the books I've read where the hero is summoned or transported exclusively by gods could be counted on one hand. 

If you want to get technical and put aside the bad writing and story planning I can get you a logical reason out of my ass as to why such a hero wouldn't and couldn't be a paladin. Not that I'm defending the point, the whole thing is indeed stupid, it's just not so logically breaking for me as you put it.

Very simple, it's not faith, it's business. It's a deal the hero accepts to do the job. Probably not the first, probably not the last, get a new life, get powers, these are the conditions and the things you have to do. It's not his conviction nor religion, maybe not even a choice. He probably didn't even know about it before that, so being a paladin of that faith in the next moment would be a little iffy, unfair and illogical for all the people of said faith. He might be there to protect them by the will of their divines (and most of the time that is attacking and destroying the threat, not to defend), but he is a good samaritan at best and a mercenary at worst. He has not been a devoted follower and believer, he doesn't know the history, the culture, the customs, the rituals, anything really. I bet he doesn't even pray or gives donations... He had a brief chat about a contract to do the dirty work and that's it. He could be blessed, destined, chosen, a hero, a champion, a saviour, but not a real paladin.

Re: Hero's summoned to another world make no sense.

#3
Now that you say it… that really is the case. I am a big fan of The Shield hero anime and manga, but when I think carefully now, why the hell is no one of the heroes a magician? Given, they do poses magical artefacts but still. I am starting to think that most authors like the heroes to get close and personal with their targets and that’s why the main character is always a swordsman. How many bow or spear-wielding main characters do you know? At best, they are the sidekicks.

If you ask me, the best and safest way to deal with the Demon Lord would be to evaporate him with badass magic from a distance. But hey, where is the cool bloody drama in that?

Two of the novels I really love, although they are not a hero-summon ones, are The Book Eating Magician and The Child od Light. Both main characters are cool magicians with brains that are brilliant. The only better example I could think of is the MC of Arifureta who is a transmuter that likes to create long-ranged weapons (another clever guy who does not like to stick his hand directly into the jaws of an angry monster… eventually).


Re: Hero's summoned to another world make no sense.

#5
That paladin line killed me. It's so true, that is explicitly the conceit of paladins. Still, i think the idea is that paladins aren't exactly a common idea in japanese culture, but even if it were the whole point of summoning someone tends to be to cheat the system restricting gods influence over a world as the summoned hero is not from their world and can be blessed while outside the limiting effects of previous arrangements. IE the gods are cheating. It's not a perfect excuse for a portal story but it's generally good enough for the target audience (teens wanting an escapist fantasy) so whatever. Still i totally agree that its kinda...not the strongest base for a story unless like flssdd said, the author twists the trope into new a fun ways (like The Gilded Hero)

Re: Hero's summoned to another world make no sense.

#6
You are describing work that comprises unimaginative rehashes of cartoons someone saw, written without any depth of character, with zero literary goals or reason. While I agree work like that isn't exactly top tier,  its a general complaint one might make about any trope or story that was mishandled. I would not lay it at the door of the trope.  The trope is just a trope. You can write badly or write well within the confines of any plot. That is an authoring problem.  Plot devices like time travel, FTL spacecraft, translocation, portals, magic, exist to move stories along within their respective genres, as do flashbacks, multiple threads, so on. I agree they are not good choices for the center of a plot, anymore than a steering wheel defines a car, but don't think it limits how well or absorbing a story a good author can make using them.  They are tools, not the furniture made with them.

In any case,
Hero's summoned to another world makes no sense.
Reincarnation into another world is a poorly done and over used cliche

I'm sensing a theme here...

Re: Hero's summoned to another world make no sense.

#7

FAHyatt Wrote: You are describing work that comprises unimaginative rehashes of cartoons someone saw, written without any depth of character, with zero literary goals or reason. While I agree work like that isn't exactly top tier,  its a general complaint one might make about any trope or story that was mishandled. I would not lay it at the door of the trope.  The trope is just a trope. You can write badly or write well within the confines of any plot. That is an authoring problem.  Plot devices like time travel, FTL spacecraft, translocation, portals, magic, exist to move stories along within their respective genres, as do flashbacks, multiple threads, so on. I agree they are not good choices for the center of a plot, anymore than a steering wheel defines a car, but don't think it limits how well or absorbing a story a good author can make using them.  They are tools, not the furniture made with them.
Are you saying then we shouldn't try and improve them then? Tropes are the beginner's building blocks to writing and should we not try and improve them periodically over time? Nothing is solved by saying "it can't be helped" and while I do have my fair share of problems with most tropes I do think they're the easiest way to write an interesting story and in light of that people should work to expand and improve upon them.

Re: Hero's summoned to another world make no sense.

#8
Pokemon Mystery Dungeon has no paladins. Therefore, Arceus can't just go, "Here you are, as a paladin." So if the system doesn't have paladins, point is moot.

Second, paladins are just one class who gets powers from gods. Warlocks and druids are also given powers from gods.

So your title is about how heroes being summoned to a different world makes no sense. So slant is, Isekai makes no sense. Then you talk about how your problem is that they aren't a paladin?
GriefTG Wrote: Think about it the hero is given power by the goddess/god to fight evil and that is the literal definition of a paladin yet for some reason the hero never is one. This just goes to show how uncreative and cookie-cutter most isekai's are...


Topic: Isekai makes no sense.

Main paragraph idea: Hero is given power by God to fight evil so they should be a paladin.
Next idea: Since they aren't paladins, this shows Isekai is not creative.

Eh? You're not supplying enough evidence for your point. Your basic premise is Isekai makes no sense because they are never paladins. And also that because they are never paladins that makes most Isekai not creative.


GriefTG Wrote: Granted most stories either give them some magical ability or make is physical stats out of this world but I'm going to utter one word that will totally break all logic in those previously established worlds... Paladin.


Actually, going back, this sentence is weird too.

Idea: Paladins break all logic in those worlds.

Again, how?

Your idea could be written down to: "I don't like Isekai's because they don't have paladins. I find that boring."

Re: Hero's summoned to another world make no sense.

#9

SaviorfoxOwlis Wrote: Pokemon Mystery Dungeon has no paladins. Therefore, Arceus can't just go, "Here you are, as a paladin." So if the system doesn't have paladins, point is moot.

Second, paladins are just one class who gets powers from gods. Warlocks and druids are also given powers from gods.

So your title is about how heroes being summoned to a different world makes no sense. So slant is, Isekai makes no sense. Then you talk about how your problem is that they aren't a paladin?
GriefTG Wrote: Think about it the hero is given power by the goddess/god to fight evil and that is the literal definition of a paladin yet for some reason the hero never is one. This just goes to show how uncreative and cookie-cutter most isekai's are...


Topic: Isekai makes no sense.

Main paragraph idea: Hero is given power by God to fight evil so they should be a paladin.
Next idea: Since they aren't paladins, this shows Isekai is not creative.

Eh? You're not supplying enough evidence for your point. Your basic premise is Isekai makes no sense because they are never paladins. And also that because they are never paladins that makes most Isekai not creative.


GriefTG Wrote: Granted most stories either give them some magical ability or make is physical stats out of this world but I'm going to utter one word that will totally break all logic in those previously established worlds... Paladin.


Actually, going back, this sentence is weird too.

Idea: Paladins break all logic in those worlds.

Again, how?

Your idea could be written down to: "I don't like Isekai's because they don't have paladins. I find that boring."
Your entire argument with me can be summarized like this.


Me: makes a statement

You: Says that's wrong without actually disproving anything

For one I actually do mention druids and to an extent warlocks you just chose to ignore that. Second, Pokemon mystery dungeon doesn't have mages, or berserkers either so what's your point? The point of my title is pointing out the fact that they don't make sense and then I gave a reason why I felt they didn't make sense if you're acting like these can't connect them then you're blind.

Addressing the second paragraph, It wasn't meant to be an entire essay stating all the fallacies that plague the isekai genre but a small kickstarter to other topics other people could bring up. My point of that though was the fact that none of the hero's being paladins goes to show how poorly thought out and cookie-cutter the genre is are you going to argue the fact that the genre is over cliched and underthought?

Regarding your last paragraph while a slight exaggeration on my part the point still stands and if you can't see my point based on what I said previously then I give up.

YOU MISSED THE ENTIRE POINT OF ME WRITING THIS! The point of this was to point out the logical gaps that exist in tropes such as this and to see if others could bring up similar leaps in logic they discovered it was never really focused just on paladins(It was just an example I brought up), but instead on the idea that the genre as a whole could be improved you were too busy arguing about pointless things to figure that out though.

Re: Hero's summoned to another world make no sense.

#10
Writing about paladins is uncommon because paladins are inherently problematic, they are infamous in D&D as being a no fun allowed class because paladins are extremely moral and purist and strict, this can limit your options when writing and for many it is preferable to avoid that limitation.


Quote:suddenly you appear before a god 
I think maybe >5% of reborn in another world serials use this so I wouldn't say it is inherent to the trope at all. Mostly it's just jumping straight to the new world and picking up a sword is just the most common option available which is perfectly reasonable in a fantasy world.

Re: Hero's summoned to another world make no sense.

#11

Stratothrax Wrote: Writing about paladins is uncommon because paladins are inherently problematic, they are infamous in D&D as being a no fun allowed class because paladins are extremely moral and purist and strict. 


Quote:suddenly you appear before a god 
I think maybe >5% of reborn in another world serials use this so I wouldn't say it is inherent to the trope atall.
Except for the part where they don't need to be morally good now just follow their gods laws and while yes they tend to lean more towards good isn't that the entire point of being the hero? I mean most of modern isekai mc's would faint if they accidentally stepped on a puppy anyways so I don't see much of a difference there, and besides if you want an evil mc just make the god evil or neglectful and then evil shenanigans begin.

Re: Hero's summoned to another world make no sense.

#12
On the other hand that sounds like a good story idea. 
Someone summoned by a god and given the class that forces him to do paladin things. Imagine he was atheist or just not a good person before being thrown into a fantasy world juggling too many things he is not ready for - training with weapons and magic, fighting demons, defending villages from monsters, kingdoms and noble politics, church conspiracies, awe from peasants and fan clubs, envy and hate from other knights and heroes. 
He acts "good" but he is sick and tired of it all and wants nothing to do with it, but he has to, otherwise he'd be too weak and be swept up in evil plots or used or killed and whatnot or the class itself makes him or the only way to go back home. At the same time he is not and can't be really op despite the unique class and divine help and blessings because he is not a true believer, can't channel holy mana or energy, doesn't give a damn or he is so pissed at the god that vows revenge or something among those lines.

Re: Hero's summoned to another world make no sense.

#13

GriefTG Wrote: Me: makes a statement

You: Says that's wrong without actually disproving anything
I don't have to disprove you. It's up to you. You're making a claim and I'm not convinced.
GriefTG Wrote: For one I actually do mention druids and to an extent warlocks you just chose to ignore that. Second, Pokemon mystery dungeon doesn't have mages, or berserkers either so what's your point? The point of my title is pointing out the fact that they don't make sense and then I gave a reason why I felt they didn't make sense if you're acting like these can't connect them then you're blind.
GriefTG Wrote: Naturally, as all poorly developed protagonists, you accept without questioning anything and get giving some random cookie-cutter powers that make you unbeatable but what are you? A magician capable of summoning meteors? A druid fighting corruption with the power of nature?
So, your argument is confusing. First, I didn't "chose to ignore that", it's just that you do mention druids and warlocks but it's in the same lines as you criticizing isekais. So I thought you were deriding them. You also mention a stupid swordsman, then paladin in next two breaths. So, is the paladin the stupid swordsman? Or are you criticizing the swordsman?


I mention Pokemon Mystery Dungeon because it's an Isekai. It's relevant.

GriefTG Wrote: Addressing the second paragraph, It wasn't meant to be an entire essay stating all the fallacies that plague the isekai genre but a small kickstarter to other topics other people could bring up. My point of that though was the fact that none of the hero's being paladins goes to show how poorly thought out and cookie-cutter the genre is are you going to argue the fact that the genre is over cliched and underthought?


Problem: You don't make it clear that there's more. Therefore, it looks like the crux of your argument is that there are no paladins, and you don't connect the dots. And if you mentioned druids before, why not keep up with that, and say Warlocks and Druids and Paladins should all show up.


GriefTG Wrote: Regarding your last paragraph while a slight exaggeration on my part the point still stands and if you can't see my point based on what I said previously then I give up.
Yet you continue to talk.



GriefTG Wrote: YOU MISSED THE ENTIRE POINT OF ME WRITING THIS! The point of this was to point out the logical gaps that exist in tropes such as this and to see if others could bring up similar leaps in logic they discovered it was never really focused just on paladins(It was just an example I brought up), but instead on the idea that the genre as a whole could be improved you were too busy arguing about pointless things to figure that out though.
Too busy arguing pointless things? The only thing mentioned in the original post was paladins.
GriefTG Wrote: I''m quite curious about how many other tropes are overlooked in this capacity if you know of any feel free to comment them.
This implies that paladins was the only thing you could think of. "How many other tropes are overlooked in this capacity"? That means you're asking others if there are other examples.


And yes, you do ask for more discussion, but it looks more like a rant with a polite "oh yeah, and if you have other things to talk about, mention them."

So yeah, I am a little confused about your argument. If Paladins is just one part of it, you should have expanded more with other examples. A good essay is structured with a case at top, then leading with more examples.


I'm not attacking you. I'm just asking for explanation. Go deeper into your points.



Re: Hero's summoned to another world make no sense.

#14
Why, though? 

I mean, I assume you're not talking about the knights of Charlemagne, or the nobles of the Roman empire, but the D&D class. And... that's about as unimaginative and cookie-cutter as it gets y'know? Which is fine of course, tropes are tropes after all and all that matters is how they're written, but I don't really see the point of adding a trope to a trope to make it less trope-y.

Ofc, tropes are all about how they're written. There's nothing WRONG with the tropes in themselves. I just don't feel it's a fix to the issue of being unimaginative, if you feel that's something that's bothering you, it'd probably bother you anyway. 

Though perhaps you would like 'Clearing an Isekai with the Zero-Believers Goddess'. 

Re: Hero's summoned to another world make no sense.

#16
Heros summoned to another world is stupid in general. Why not just empower a Guy that is already on that world. He would fight with his all because it is his own world, is probably stronger and better trained than the limp noodle of our world, knows the world allready and what is happening around the world and the power cost to reach our world is probably not cheap and would probably deduct from the overall power that goes into the hero. Why not just use the power instead to make him stronger still, instead of using it to reach another world.

Re: Hero's summoned to another world make no sense.

#20

GriefTG Wrote:
FAHyatt Wrote: You are describing work that comprises unimaginative rehashes of cartoons someone saw, written without any depth of character, with zero literary goals or reason. While I agree work like that isn't exactly top tier,  its a general complaint one might make about any trope or story that was mishandled. I would not lay it at the door of the trope.  The trope is just a trope. You can write badly or write well within the confines of any plot. That is an authoring problem.  Plot devices like time travel, FTL spacecraft, translocation, portals, magic, exist to move stories along within their respective genres, as do flashbacks, multiple threads, so on. I agree they are not good choices for the center of a plot, anymore than a steering wheel defines a car, but don't think it limits how well or absorbing a story a good author can make using them.  They are tools, not the furniture made with them.
Are you saying then we shouldn't try and improve them then? Tropes are the beginner's building blocks to writing and should we not try and improve them periodically over time? Nothing is solved by saying "it can't be helped" and while I do have my fair share of problems with most tropes I do think they're the easiest way to write an interesting story and in light of that people should work to expand and improve upon them.

You are misinterpreting. I said that tropes are sometimes misused in uncreative  or clumsy ways, or not embedded in good plots. The implication is that there are better stories and worse stories, but that this can seldom put at the door of having used a literary device common to a genre.  No one thinks that the use of a trope on its own defines the output of an author or are  "beginners Blocks".  Some  grouse against overuse of some of them,  sexual manipulation for one.  This does not suppose that tropes are not threaded throughout all of literature, because they are.  People have their favorites and have ones they do not like.  Which only notes that people have different tastes in literature (loosely defined).  I do see that a lot of work is titled here to highlight the fact that a certain trope is going to be central to the story, a "me too" shout out which I noted is not a thing I personally admire - a trope should not be the central point of a good story. The plot and character journey should be central.  I assume this is to attract interest of anime readers, as the cartoons do this a lot, rather like production shop novels used to.  A lot of anime can be divided into "Harem"  "Isekai" so on, that have followings.  You basically don't like Isiekai, which is your right. I certainly have nothing against truly new tropes, or ideas or plots in literature, but they come about slowly and depend on reader acceptance to bloom in the real world of literature.