Re: Are Romcoms to women what Harems are to men?

#1
Before we start, let me give you a bit of background first.

So, my lady friend and I were sitting at my place last night and she was watching some drama on Netflix, so I decided to continue working on my story.

This came as a surprise to her and she felt a bit upset, which I did not know at the time.

When I finally coaxed the reason out of her, it sparked a debate.

The title says harems because it is more pertinent to the people on the forums, but it could include games which I know some women and men have problems with. (the oversexualization)  

It was sparked by a question she asked me. "Why do all men hate Romcoms?"

I will say this, it was a generalization and it came from a place that I find cute. (She wanted me to spend time with her.)
There are most definitely guys that like them.

All that aside, the question made me start to think. (I really don't like Romcoms.) 

I have heard it said that harems are wish fulfillment and unrealistic- that sort of thing, but are most Romcoms not the same?

For the people rolling their eyes at me, hear me out first.

The men in these stories always seem willing to sacrifice their dreams, careers and sometimes even their lives to win the women's affection. I don't have any data to back this up, but I feel like these movies would cause women (not all) to have unrealistic expectations from men and give them a false idea of what love should be like. Expectations that men would have to live up to. I personally feel it would not be fair. 

So people have issues with the oversexualized games and harem stories because the females depicted in them promote body issues and stuff like that. I agree to an extend, but its not any better when men are expected to be prince charming, ready and willing to risk ourselves mentally, physically and emotionally and are called selfish for daring to have our own desires.

To me these stories bolster the idea that women should expect to have their boyfriends/husbands be their knight in shining armour. Give them everything of who they are, dehumanizing themselves for the women's pleasure and perverted idea of what love and romance is. I don't find that romantic at all.

Some, may be scoffing or feeling offended right about now, but does that not prove my point? Thinking that its wrong and selfish that a man should not give in to all of his counter part's demands. 

I will say this. Where I am from men used to be taught that they have to be that knight to a degree, you know the whole you have to provide, care for and give safety to your woman. So some part of me is also conditioned to be the knight and i believe it is the same for a lot of others that were taught the same.


What do you guys think?  Lets keep the conversation going.


Also, my story is not a harem.
 

Re: Are Romcoms to women what Harems are to men?

#2
If you dig into feminist literature, romance fiction tends to be shred to pieces. Within the stories, the role depictions are based on bourgeois citizenship ideas, they cling to nuclear family ideals, push the binary gender constructs and often combine with fetishized homophobia and sometimes violent transphobic rhetoric. Romance Novels, in particular, can be every bit as raunchy and depraved as some outright porn stories. Gender Studies might just agree with your point of view on romcom and romance novels.

Personally, my issue isn't with the wish fulfillment or the sexual part of the content. I'm of the opinion that centuries of being ashamed of sexuality and making a taboo out of it have brought us the current mess, where a woman breastfeeding is somehow global news again. We don't need less sexuality in media, we need much more of it until it's so mundane, all the arcane mysticism is lost.
However, the roles and ideas about society in both types of media (harem and romcom) do rub me the wrong way but I'm not going to fight them. They'll naturally shift over time. That said, while there is a bit of double standard when it comes to romcom and harem, it bears to keep in mind that romcoms are usually PG-13 with a kiss at most and harems have the connotation of being much more focused on sexuality and would be closer to an NC-17 rating. Now romance novels... hah, if we'd be honest, they'd get hammered with an adult only rating. Sorry, personal pet peeve after having to edit several dozens of these things.

Romcom and harem aren't equivalent, no. Harem and romance novels are much closer and have significant wish fulfillment overlap. Both go nuts on weird societal roles and ideas.

Re: Are Romcoms to women what Harems are to men?

#4
There is a reason why romcoms are sometimes called "chick flicks". They are basically(often, but not always) softcore porn for women. Even when the protagonist is a man, it's  more about "breaking" him... making him see his "wrongs" and "compromise" (submit) to every whim of a woman.... for a kiss.... Can't get much more pathetic than that in my opinion.

The same is true for (rom) comedy sitcoms. The man is always the stupid joke, who has to apologize in the end to get back his lost favor of the (or all) female characters.


Re: Are Romcoms to women what Harems are to men?

#5
A man's romantic fantasy is the antithesis of what society expects out of a man during the dating process and during a relationship.


Many women would probably think that a man just fantasizes about the kind of thing that you see in various adult videos. Sure, we have an animalistic side that thinks about that. But when we think with our heart we fantasize about something completely different.

When it comes to romance, a man is typically expected to take on a very active role. He's expected to make the first move and do something or be something to prove his worth to her right away. He's expected to walk up to her and put on a good enough show in order to qualify as a candidate. He needs to be charming and/or funny and/or other beguiling enough to receive a passing mark on the entrance exam to dating.

For a man, dating is work. It's a lot of work. He needs to put his heart and soul into a performance just to hope that it is enough to be noticed.

But society expects the opposite for a woman. She is allowed to just be there. She just needs to exist and be visible and it's expected that she just needs to be available for a man to make put on his display. Dating for a woman is far more passive. Not for all women, of course, but in general.

Women have things that they do but little of it is socially active. Little of it comes with the risk of embarrassment or overt rejection. He comes to her and puts on his show and then she gets to decide if he gets the chance to move on to the next round of trying to impress her.

The typical romantic fantasy from a woman's perspective is for a man to come and "sweep her off of her feet". It's for the man to put on such a good, enchanting show that there's no way that she could possibly reject his advances. Her fantasy is to have the ultimate active partner. The vast majority of high selling and extremely popular romantic movies or romance novels reflect this, because women are their biggest consumers. This, however, propagates a vicious cycle when/where men turn away this type of media.

So, here's the point of all of this: A man's romantic fantasy is just be accepted for who he is.

Men are tired of having to constantly put on a show. They're tired of putting so much of themselves into trying to read a women in order to react to her and to be this wonderfully charming individual to pass her barrier of entry. He's tired of having so much on the line and then waiting those gut wrenching moments where she's silently deciding, over the course of the attempt, whether he gets the thumbs up or thumbs down.

A man just wants to be wanted for who he is a regular basis. He wants someone who stand by his side and support him even when he can't be "on". He wants a moment to feel what's it like to have that more passive role where someone else makes him feel desirable simply for being there. He wants a partner to show him that he matters for no reason other than being recognized as someone who actually does matter.

A man just... wants to be wanted.

I could go on an even stronger tirade, backing this up with data. But I'm sure you get the point. A quick look at all of Amazon's romance best-sellers will quickly reveal who the genre is targeting. With the market for romance, and society's expectations as they are, it's no surprise men turn away from rom-coms. 

Just like women, men also strive for some kind of wish fulfillment. When the story/content of this product doesn't provide it, we will naturally end up looking for it somewhere else. That's where the harem genre — poorly written as it may be — enters the fray. It lets us project a sense of being the object of desire for once. It lets us live our fantasy. 

Re: Are Romcoms to women what Harems are to men?

#7
Not at all, because romcoms actually have some really redeeming qualities to them outside of wish fulfillment fantasies. Some of the best films of all-time are romantic comedies with female protagonists: Broadcast News, or Say Anything..., or Night is Short Walk On Girl, or Working Girl... you can go on from there, but the point is that the "chick flick romcom" is a mostly-dead genre that thrived in the 00s and early 10s because they were cheap to make, required only two major stars, and could be hammered out in formula. That's the similarity to the harem genre I guess, but that only applies to the specific subset of Bad 00s Romcoms. 

Do harems even have any stories that go beyond wish fulfillment fantasies? Don't say Bakemonogatari because that's a parody harem. 

Re: Are Romcoms to women what Harems are to men?

#8
Thedude3445 Wrote: Do harems even have any stories that go beyond wish fulfillment fantasies? Don't say Bakemonogatari because that's a parody harem.

I'm not a harem fan, but I have seen some which are a normal story of some other genre done with an all-female or almost-all-female cast.  For example, the female group is a sports team or a fantasy adventuring party or a pirate crew or school students, and they do a normal story for the genre associated with that activity.

Re: Are Romcoms to women what Harems are to men?

#9
The title made me laugh. The replies were actually very interesting. I don't have much of an opinion on this matter since I don't think I've ever watched a modern romcom/chick flick before unless Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice old classic masterpiece series rendition counts? That along with other period pieces from years back when I used to devour the likes of Downton Abbey. I suppose asian/or kdramas count as asian romcoms, but even with those I grew out of them as they were mostly a family-safe thing to watch. I agree that romcoms are mostly fluff for women. This fluff (sometimes mixed in with what borders on porn and unfortunately rape too--of which I steer far far away from), is pretty prominent in romance novels. I didn't realize how widespread this genre was until I started reading web serials/fictions---the same goes for harem.

Before I go on any ramble about how disappointed I am with modern romance fictions (especially made by women)---I don't like harem either as it usually destroys both the male and (more especially) female characters from ever being any "good"---I feel like it's an age old conflict between men and women in relationships. There are expectations and beliefs on both sides of which we can all debate about being true or more relevant than the other. Depending on the society and family in which we grew up, we develop one opinion or the other when in the end, it all boils down to simply wanting to be loved for themselves (as one previous poster had said for men and which is equally true for women). Funny, the answer was always there, but we still struggle with it nevertheless. But we all have imaginations and fantasies, wants and needs. Love and relationships have always had that paradoxical nature of being both simple and complex at the same time. Isn't that what humans tend to do anyway? We both oversimplify and overcomplicate things. I just like watching the process of either or both and seeing us live as stupidly and wonderfully as we do.